1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Ethics - How To Live As An Epicurean
  4. Practical Applications and Epicurean Lifestyle
  5. Self-Sufficiency - Including Gardening / Farming / Agriculture
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Living off the land

  • HsiehKW
  • July 25, 2023 at 5:41 AM
  • Go to last post
Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • HsiehKW
    02 - Basic Member
    Points
    148
    Posts
    16
    Quizzes
    1
    Quiz rate
    88.9 %
    • July 25, 2023 at 5:41 AM
    • #1

    Anybody here "lives off the land" or somewhat close to it? I've been meaning to at least do that partially. Got done with a big move to the outskirts of the city and it is kind of rural here, not sure about relaxing yet though. We're renting a house "semi-native" house they call it and it has maybe some good 15x15 meter area that we can use. I do not have a green thumb and a cactus plant died on us when I was younger. But that's something I see myself doing in the near future.

    Searching the internet, I don't see any resources about the use of The Garden. I would imagine it wasn't all for aesthetics. Would Epicureans then would've lived off their land? I think they might have bought bread judging from Epicurus's famous "gloating" about living on less than a penny. But I guess it would have been quite likely they did use it for sustenance in some way. I'm just wondering if some of us here have embraced this kind of lifestyle.

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    40,062
    Posts
    5,577
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • July 25, 2023 at 7:05 AM
    • #2
    Quote from HsiehKW

    I think they might have bought bread judging from Epicurus's famous "gloating" about living on less than a penny.

    I addressed the quote from Seneca about the "penny" in a post from January:

    Post

    RE: Weight Loss Methods - Poll of EpicureanFriends Results

    Diogenes Laertius 10.7:

    he spent a whole mina daily on his table, as he himself says in his letter to Leontion and in that to the philosophers at Mitylene.

    [ U158 ]

    Seneca, Letters to Lucilius, 18.9: The great hedonist teacher Epicurus used to observe certain periods during which he would be niggardly in satisfying his hunger, with the object of seeing to what extent, if at all, one thereby fell short of attaining full and complete pleasure, and whether it was worth going to much trouble to make…
    Don
    January 18, 2023 at 12:14 PM

    And, yes, the Garden (ho kēpos ο κήπος ) would have included vegetables and fruit. If you search around on the site here (or take a look at my paper on the location of the Garden in the Files section) you'll see some description of the size and use. They would not have exclusively lived off the land, however; no more than any other ancient Greek living in the city of Athens.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    103,095
    Posts
    14,124
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • July 25, 2023 at 7:29 AM
    • #3

    Good subject for a thread, and yes I myself divide my time between city life and "the countryside" - where I hope to spend more and more of my time. But as of yet I have not developed much of a green thumb, with the exception of planting several fig trees which are now mature and producing.

  • HsiehKW
    02 - Basic Member
    Points
    148
    Posts
    16
    Quizzes
    1
    Quiz rate
    88.9 %
    • July 25, 2023 at 9:38 AM
    • #4

    Cassius That reminds me I have to check on our sole aloe vera plant lol

    Thanks, Don will read it.

  • Little Rocker
    03 - Full Member
    Points
    984
    Posts
    116
    • July 25, 2023 at 3:50 PM
    • #5

    I also have a sad history of killing succulents, but I grew tomatoes for a few summers before I started traveling regularly, and it was amazingly rewarding. I say give it a go! As for Epicurus, there seems to have been a record of him writing to thank a friend for selling grain at a fair price during scarcity, and another record of the Epicureans rationing beans. So as Don says, it seems they did grow many things, but like everyone else, they were not entirely self-sustaining. As I understand it, Greece always had trouble growing enough food to feed its population, which is one of the reasons they had so many colonies. And then there were skirmishes among the city-states for the agricultural land. There's a good book about this, aptly titled War, Food, and Politics in Early Hellenistic Athens, GJ Oliver.

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    40,062
    Posts
    5,577
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • July 25, 2023 at 4:30 PM
    • #6
    Quote from Little Rocker

    There's a good book about this, aptly titled War, Food, and Politics in Early Hellenistic Athens, GJ Oliver.

    By Zeus, I love my library! Just put a hold on it in our collection. Ready to pick up Thursday ^^

  • Online
    Bryan
    ὁ Φιλαληθής
    Points
    4,906
    Posts
    602
    Quizzes
    4
    Quiz rate
    97.6 %
    • July 25, 2023 at 4:50 PM
    • #7

    I think this is an important topic. Epicurus valued autonomy and self-sufficiency. It seems to me that having money will provide neither when something really goes wrong with the country/currency.

  • HsiehKW
    02 - Basic Member
    Points
    148
    Posts
    16
    Quizzes
    1
    Quiz rate
    88.9 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 12:21 AM
    • #8

    Don I'm meaning to experiment with how far I can go live on today's equivalent of 2 asses in my currency. But unlike Epicurus, I don't think I'd have a good reason to gloat or boast.

    I used this ancient money calculator for fun to estimate how much would it be today in USD and in my country's currency. The minimum wage here is $7.29 per day. If I used the calculator correctly, 2 asses would amount to $5.47. I think a family of 3 with one breadwinner in this particular rural area can "easily" feed themselves on just $4 per day. There may even be some who do live on less than $2 per day, considering this is a rural area and I recently found out that many live without water and electricity (recently moved). One of our neighbors, in fact, doesn't. But that $2 per day would probably be just rice with salted fish, instant ramen, or even just soy sauce and oil just to give rice flavor. That said, I could easily live on just $0.50 per day but that's not really an achievement (and probably not healthy). And, definitely, nothing to boast about given the context here.

    I think living off 2 asses at $5.44 in the US based on a $7.25 minimum wage, would be somewhat commendable. I lived there for a while (during high school) and if I remember correctly that's not much. So, I'm wondering if anybody of us here already tried the same experiment. How did it go? Is it sustainable? And how would we today define living in moderation in relation to finances?

    Bryan that's also my general idea. Hard to do without a community though. But I'mma try. I guess it comes down to hiring help for me (something Epicurus wouldn't mind, I believe).

  • Root304
    Guest
    • July 26, 2023 at 1:36 AM
    • #9

    I grew up on 20 acres of pasture land, but my parents must not have seen the merits in introducing me to things like gardening or tending to livestock much, though we had those things. So I never acquired a real desire to produce food. I am more of a value added type of guy, turning that food into fermented beverages. ;)

    My wife is big on house plants and I do have a sole pothos plant next to my statue of Epicurus that I thought I'd get to be in solidarity with her, and to notice/remember my Epicurus. It has survived many dryspells of me forgetting about it for weeks. :thumbup:

    As for living off the land, that may be something I have in the cards as some friends of mine and I are pooling our money together early next year for some land to have our commune on. So that's fun to think about.

  • HsiehKW
    02 - Basic Member
    Points
    148
    Posts
    16
    Quizzes
    1
    Quiz rate
    88.9 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 2:12 AM
    • #10

    Oh nice! Fermented beverages sound really great too. If I were in your stead, I'd probably steer that into a beer, wine, and cheese-making kibbutz. Hope you can share photos when the time comes, just for us to see and feel a little progress. I will too when get to start planting, etc.

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    40,062
    Posts
    5,577
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 8:04 AM
    • #11

    Even with the difficulty (or almost impossibility) of getting modern equivalent values for ancient money, your calculations look at least plausible to me. Nicely done.
    The important thing to me seems to be that even experimenting on eating what "less than an as" would buy, Epicurus wasn't starving himself like an ascetic. He wasn't trying to live on a single grain of rice like Siddhartha Gautama during his ascetic phase. Epicurus was experimenting from time to time on how much would actually satisfy his hunger.

    Quote from HsiehKW

    Don I'm meaning to experiment with how far I can go live on today's equivalent of 2 asses in my currency. But unlike Epicurus, I don't think I'd have a good reason to gloat or boast.

    We have to be careful about phrases like this, because we don't have Epicurus's "well-known" letter that Seneca refers to. The relevant section is Seneca letter 18:8-11 (emphasis added):

    Quote from Seneca

    Even Epicurus, the teacher of pleasure, used to observe stated intervals, during which he satisfied his hunger in meager fashion; he wished to see whether he thereby fell short of full and complete happiness, and, if so, by what amount he fell short, and whether this amount was worth purchasing at the price of great effort. At any rate, he makes such a statement in the well known letter written to Polyaenus in the archonship of Charinus.[7] Indeed, he boasts that he himself lived on less than an as, but that Metrodorus, whose progress was not yet so great, needed a whole as. 10. Do you think that there can be fulness on such fare? Yes, and there is pleasure also, – not that shifty and fleeting pleasure which needs a fillip now and then, but a pleasure that is steadfast and sure. For though water, barley-meal, and crusts of barley-bread, are not a cheerful diet, yet it is the highest kind of pleasure to be able to derive pleasure from this sort of food, and to have reduced one's needs to that modicum which no unfairness of Fortune can snatch away. 11. Even prison fare is more generous; and those who have been set apart for capital punishment are not so meanly fed by the man who is to execute them. Therefore, what a noble soul must one have, to descend of one's own free will to a diet which even those who have been sentenced to death have not to fear! This is indeed forestalling the spear-thrusts of Fortune.

    So, Epicurus undertook these intervals of experimenting with a meager diet, "less generous than prison fare," from time to time to prove to himself that if he *had* to live on that much due to unforseen circumstances in the future, he could still be happy. He was testing his limits experimentally.

    We have to be careful about the English translation of Seneca's glorior in the Latin text as "boast". Remember that we're getting Epicurus's Greek filtered through the Stoic Seneca's Latin. Glorior does mean "boast" but also "take pride in." And remember we don't have Epicurus's words. We can't know how he described his feeling. To indulge in some DeWittean flight of fancy referring to a lost text, I could easily imagine Epicurus writing to Polyaenus: "Recently, I've been able to satisfy my hunger pleasurably on less than an obol. I'm quite pleased with that outcome. Metrodorus has found he still requires a full obol, and we have had enjoyable frank discussions about our experiences..." That's all imagination remember. But if the lost letter went something like that -- and we don't know if it did! -- I could see the Seneca the Stoic saying Epicurus was boasting or was proud of himself.

  • HsiehKW
    02 - Basic Member
    Points
    148
    Posts
    16
    Quizzes
    1
    Quiz rate
    88.9 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 10:00 AM
    • #12

    Thanks Don! I'll be careful next time. I didn't mean that in a negative way at all. Should have put them in scare quotes. I'm also experimenting in that way, trying to follow his footsteps in that regard. Doing IF every day, multi-day fasting from time to time, and trying to eat simpler -- from epicurean to Epicurean. This is where I am at in my journey. A four-day fast was my record back in college but now the most recent longest multi-day one I did was three. Now, I want to live frugally and hopefully partially live off the land. Good thing you brought up that point about how he was doing it to see whether he can if he had to, that is lost on me. That's a great way to anchor this experiment. And it will come in handy. So, thanks! Hopefully, I'll make it a lifestyle.

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    40,062
    Posts
    5,577
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 10:40 AM
    • #13

    In reference to my post 11 above, it is not out of the question in my opinion to consider periodic fasting or intervals of caloric restriction to be well within Epicurean practice. I'm not ready to call for either as a regular lifestyle but could easily see the teachers and students of the Garden periodically taking part in these and comparing results with each other. When you pay attention to your feeling of pleasure, is your meal truly satisfying? When times of famine come (as they most definitely did in ancient Greece!), how much truly satisfies my hunger and removes my pain? What do I *need* as opposed to what do I *want*? Then go about your regular routine until the next experiment. Do I need as much as last time or does less satisfy me? Or do I really need more? What do I *need* to be healthy and happy? Was I fooling myself last time, trying to show off withstanding pain, like a Stoic?

    This also has echoes of Epicurus sharing his bean crop in times of famine. He and his students were prepared to know what a reasonable or realistic ration was due to prior experience and experimentation.

    This could be an interesting area for experimentation.

    Edit/Addendum:

    I wanted to add that nowhere do we read that Epicurus experimented in this way with clothing, housing, etc. He didn't experiment with living by begging or staying in a cave. He didn't go out with a flimsy cloak or barefoot in winter (like Socrates did to show how unencumbered by convention he was). He didn't try begging in the streets like Cynic. Epicurus had a modest house in the city, a large private productive Garden literally in the suburbs. Epicurus does write about fancy clothes and extravagant houses being unnecessary for well-being, but these could be enjoyed, just like a banquet, if opportunities presented themselves.

  • Pacatus
    03 - Full Member
    Points
    6,193
    Posts
    777
    Quizzes
    5
    Quiz rate
    92.3 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 2:11 PM
    • #14

    I’ve shared before that my wife and I spent 15 years on 20+ acres in the country. Our cottage sat down a chert lane and across a small limestone creek (called Terrapin Branch), and against a high wooded ridge. We had goats and various fruit trees (my wife made tasty dry country wines from tart cherries and elderberries – and even parsley once). We had a kitchen garden that yielded enough tomatoes, bell peppers, onions and garlic – and herbs such as oregano, parsley and sage -- to last the winter. In the last years, we had a small greenhouse.

    To do that, I had to retire early, and we cut our income by nearly half. Let’s say we lived those years in "rich simplicity."

    Now we have lived for 10 years as townies in a small apartment. We only grow a few herbs on the deck. We do try to get a lot of groceries and produce from the local co-op. (During the pandemic we had nearly everything delivered – including wine from a discount wine club that supports up-and-coming independent vintners, including a number of women.) We eat out about once a week.

    I am not by nature ascetic – quite the contrary! :D I do intermittent fasting for its health benefits (12 to 16 hours three or four times a week). All in all, as townies on fixed income, I would say that we live in “rich frugality.”

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

  • Online
    Bryan
    ὁ Φιλαληθής
    Points
    4,906
    Posts
    602
    Quizzes
    4
    Quiz rate
    97.6 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 2:28 PM
    • #15

    Hunger is the best spice "cibi condimentum esse famem" as Cicero, in one of his Epicurus roasts (De Finibus II.xxviii) attributes to Socrates. So the idea/statement would have been common/passé in Epicurus' time. The idea seems to be expressed in many cultures at many times in history.

  • HsiehKW
    02 - Basic Member
    Points
    148
    Posts
    16
    Quizzes
    1
    Quiz rate
    88.9 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 4:48 PM
    • #16

    Thanks for sharing! I'm quite interested not in just understanding the teachings better but also in how it is practiced and lived by others. I must admit that I have that propensity to be ascetic in terms of clothes and just be away from the crowd in general. But not to achieve some virtue but it's just quite comfortable for me and I simply don't like being in public too often. It's too much pain sometimes. In terms of food, I have been quite extravagant by local standards. I wish to correct that as I think it won't bring me much pleasure in the long run, considering I'm a new parent. Now that it was brought it up, I think it's clearer to be now that looking for that "rich simplicity".

    Also, I'm curious. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think a close community can be very helpful to practice. For me, I think this forum is a great way to compensate for the lack of face-to-face fellowship and the opportunity to learn from others, especially from those who have been at it longer, have some mastery, and exhibit impressive scholarship. But I wonder if any of us here have a sort of close community of Epicurean friends nearby, how that helps, and any tips on how you go about it if you are without such.

  • Pacatus
    03 - Full Member
    Points
    6,193
    Posts
    777
    Quizzes
    5
    Quiz rate
    92.3 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 5:42 PM
    • #17

    I just wanted to add to the above that I do not think of “frugality” as some kind of idealistic virtue-discipline (ala, say, the Stoics) – but just as the simple practical virtue of “living well within your means” – where the double entendre with that word “well” is deliberate. And living well just means living as pleasurable, painlessly and stresslessly as possible.

    +++++++++

    HsiehKW

    I’ve always been a natural introvert and even a bit reclusive at times (well, maybe more than a bit X/ ). A few close friends matter a lot, but I would have a hard time living in a close community – even of like-minded folks. This is my Epicurean community. :)

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    40,062
    Posts
    5,577
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 5:47 PM
    • #18
    Quote from Pacatus

    I just wanted to add to the above that I do not think of “frugality” as some kind of idealistic virtue-discipline (ala, say, the Stoics) – but just as the simple practical virtue of “living well within your means” – where the double entendre with that word “well” is deliberate. And living well just means living as pleasurable, painlessly and stresslessly as possible.

    Well put! Thanks for sharing that!

    From how I read your post, you see frugality as a means to "living well" and not an end in itself like a Stoic would. Frugality is not a capital-V Virtue to be followed in every situation at every time in every place.

  • HsiehKW
    02 - Basic Member
    Points
    148
    Posts
    16
    Quizzes
    1
    Quiz rate
    88.9 %
    • July 26, 2023 at 6:57 PM
    • #19

    Pacatus

    Good to know! I suspect that that is the case for many here. I would not be opposed to meet-ups though if anybody is living nearby (not likely). Honestly, I'd be thrilled!

    And yes, I totally agree with that stance on idealistic "virtues" in general. They might be practically useful to some people, but for me, they are philosophically untenable. The more I dabble in the philosophy of logic and mathematics, the more I lean toward constructivism -- loosely, that axioms (like virtues) are chosen as a "means" to arrive at something, not taken to be objectively true (e.g., Euclidean vs non-Euclidean geometries). Also, in this view, it is better to 'find' or 'construct' a mathematical object to prove its existence rather than to rely on assuming its non-existence and then provide a proof of contradiction to establish its existence. Always was uneasy when being taught this method in school. It's mathematical Platonism.

    Capital-V Virtue, I think, has loose analogs in science too. In evolutionary thinking, it manifests in ideas like "for the good of the species". It's also like symmetry fundamentalism in the philosophy of physics -- "an underlying symmetry must exist!" These may be loose analogies, but idealistic thinking can be detrimental to a lot of human endeavors. Taking it up can make you too rigid, like a do-loop that is not capable of learning or adapting.

  • Online
    Bryan
    ὁ Φιλαληθής
    Points
    4,906
    Posts
    602
    Quizzes
    4
    Quiz rate
    97.6 %
    • July 27, 2023 at 6:17 PM
    • #20
    Quote from HsiehKW

    I wonder if any of us here have a sort of close community of Epicurean friends nearby, how that helps, and any tips on how you go about it if you are without such.

    This would be a real outlier!

    Edited 3 times, last by Bryan (April 18, 2025 at 2:20 PM).

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources 19

      • Like 1
      • Cassius
      • April 1, 2022 at 5:36 PM
      • Philodemus On Anger
      • Cassius
      • June 30, 2025 at 8:54 AM
    2. Replies
      19
      Views
      5.8k
      19
    3. Don

      June 30, 2025 at 8:54 AM
    1. The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura 4

      • Thanks 1
      • Kalosyni
      • June 12, 2025 at 12:03 PM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Kalosyni
      • June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      621
      4
    3. Godfrey

      June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    1. New Blog Post From Elli - " Fanaticism and the Danger of Dogmatism in Political and Religious Thought: An Epicurean Reading"

      • Thanks 2
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
      • Epicurus vs Abraham (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      1.4k
    1. Best Lucretius translation? 9

      • Like 1
      • Rolf
      • June 19, 2025 at 8:40 AM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Rolf
      • June 19, 2025 at 3:01 PM
    2. Replies
      9
      Views
      495
      9
    3. Cassius

      June 19, 2025 at 3:01 PM
    1. New Translation of Epicurus' Works 1

      • Thanks 2
      • Eikadistes
      • June 16, 2025 at 3:50 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Eikadistes
      • June 16, 2025 at 6:32 PM
    2. Replies
      1
      Views
      479
      1
    3. Cassius

      June 16, 2025 at 6:32 PM

Latest Posts

  • "The Darkening Age: Christian Destruction of the Classical World" - By Catherine Nixey (2018)

    kochiekoch June 30, 2025 at 5:21 PM
  • Principal Doctrine XIV - Analysis And Application - Article By George Kaplanis Posted In Elli's Blog

    Cassius June 30, 2025 at 1:37 PM
  • Forum Reorganization Pending: Subforums Devoted To Individual Principal Doctrines and Vatican Sayings To Be Consolidated

    Cassius June 30, 2025 at 9:02 AM
  • Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources

    Don June 30, 2025 at 8:54 AM
  • Interesting website that connects people to work-stay vacations - farms

    Kalosyni June 30, 2025 at 8:52 AM
  • Episode 288 - Tusculan Disputations Part 3 - "Will The Wise Man Feel Grief?" Not Yet Recorded

    Cassius June 30, 2025 at 6:18 AM
  • Happy Birthday General Thread

    Cassius June 30, 2025 at 4:05 AM
  • Articles concerning Epicurus and political involvement

    sanantoniogarden June 29, 2025 at 9:54 PM
  • Welcome Samsara73

    sanantoniogarden June 29, 2025 at 9:25 PM
  • Special Emphasis On "Emotions" In Lucretius Today Podcast / Tusculan Disputations - Should Everyone Aspire To Emulate Mr. Spock?

    Cassius June 29, 2025 at 3:39 PM

Similar Threads

  • "Foundations of Epicurean Philosophy" Slideshow and Video

    • Cassius
    • December 7, 2022 at 8:59 AM
    • EpicureanFriends YouTube Videos and Slide Presentations
  • Thoughts On What Lucretius Might Have Considered For The Ending of Book Six - A Comparison Chart of Thucydides and Lucretius

    • Cassius
    • November 24, 2022 at 10:29 AM
    • Book 6
  • Welcome Kungi!

    • Cassius
    • July 22, 2022 at 4:13 AM
    • Welcome to Our New Members!
  • Episode One Hundred Thirty-Five - The Letter to Menoeceus 02 - On The Nature of the Gods

    • Cassius
    • August 8, 2022 at 8:11 AM
    • The Lucretius Today Podcast

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design