Posts by Don

In going back to Eikadistes 's compilation and looking at the Greek construction of the "if" clauses, I think Hicks gives the proper paraphrase:

Quote from Hicks, PD09 (emphasis added)

9. If all pleasure had been capable of accumulation,--if this had gone on not only by recurrence in time, but all over the frame or, at any rate, over the principal parts of man's nature, there would never have been any difference between one pleasure and another, as in fact there is.

It seems to me (check my Greek, please!) that the specific construction of PD09 falls under the unreal present as defined in that Wikipedia article and elsewhere:

Present unreal conditions

Unreal (counterfactual) conditions referring to present time are made with εἰ (ei) followed by the imperfect indicative in the protasis, and the imperfect indicative combined with the particle ἄν (án) in the apodosis

[142] [ιχ.] Εἰ κατεπυκνοῦτο πᾶσα ἡδονή, καὶ χρόνῳ καὶ περὶ ὅλον τὸ ἄθροισμα ὑπῆρχεν ἢ τὰ κυριώτατα μέρη τῆς φύσεως, οὐκ ἄν ποτε διέφερον ἀλλήλων αἱ ἡδοναί.

"The unreal conditionals either describe a situation which is contrary to fact, or which is unlikely to happen." (Source)

So, my contention is that, while PD09 is worded rather idiosyncratically, Epicurus is basically saying that pleasures do differ from each other and they can't actually be condensed. Which makes sense to me since he says elsewhere in PD18 that: 18. "Pleasure in the flesh admits no increase when once the pain of want has been removed ; after that it only admits of variation..." How could there be variation if all pleasures were the same?

Welcome aboard, Rocco ! Hope you find the conversation and resources here helpful.

Quote from Cassius

But is he knowledgeable about philosophy? Can someone be happy without philosophy? Is happiness also relative? As the saying goes, "If ignorance is bliss is the shepherd living in a constant state of ecstacy?"

I'll give you that, but I also find it interesting how many people in this forum have said that they were attracted to Epicurean philosophy because it resonated with what they were already thinking. Epicurus's philosophy has a lot of common sense and personal responsibility aspects to it. Plus, we're supposed to be modeling nature. The shepherd in the field is closer to nature than someone living in Athens. Granted, they may still be trying to propitiate the gods for good weather, crops, safe births, etc. but "it is better to follow the stories of the gods than to be enslaved by the deterministic decrees of the old natural philosophers."

What does it mean to "practice" philosophy? To me, it means to love wisdom, to practice wise living, to ponder questions to which answers may not be immediately available. Epicurus gives us a wonderful framework within which to study those questions and live that life, but it's up to us to live, study, question, seek answers, and love and practice wisdom. Could the shepherd step onto the path of wisdom on the own? Sure. Is it helpful to find a community and a framework to go further in the path? Undoubtedly! But let's not denigrate the shepherd's natural innate potential.

I still have problems with the assumption of the "uneducated" shepherd. It makes them sound ignorant. They may not be formally educated, but that doesn't mean they weren't knowledgeable about their craft. Plus, shepherds I wouldn't think were just lying around on the grass for weeks at a time. They needed to tend the flocks, take care of the sheep giving birth in that season, shear the flocks or butcher the animals depending on what they were raising the sheep for, etc. The Romantic notion of blissfully piping away the hours, lounging with a wineskin, seems to ignore a broad swath of what it actually meant to be shepherd... Plus the uncertainty of enough to eat hung over the heads of everyone.

Just providing my little black cloud to hang over the hypothetical.

Quote from Godfrey

intensity, duration and breadth

You mentioned that these are listed somewhere. To which text or PD were you referring? Sorry, I'm missing the reference.

Quote from Cassius

I'd like to see our format in the "Texts" section here at Epicureanfriends become more like that in the future

The Perseus Digital Library doesn't have interlinear texts, but their ability to click on every word to access the authoritative dictionaries is priceless.

Quote from Godfrey

PD19. Finite time and infinite time contain the same amount of joy, if its limits are measured out through reasoning.

To be clear, where Saint-Andre uses "joy" the Greek is hēdonē "pleasure." My take on that PD is that if the definition of the limit of pleasure is the removal of all pain (and after that it's just variety) it doesn't matter the amount of time, finite or infinite. If your pleasure glass is full, it's full.

But I always go back to this commentary from Diogenes Laertius when talking about Epicurus's take on eudaimonia:

Quote from Diogenes Laertius, 10.121

[121] Two sorts of happiness (eudaimonia) can be conceived, the one the highest possible, such as the gods enjoy, which cannot be augmented, the other admitting addition and subtraction of pleasures.

It's always tricky when trying to compare what texts mean when different words are used: pleasure vs happiness. 121 doesn't say two kinds of pleasure but two kinds of well-being. I do NOT think we could substitute well-being for pleasure in PD19, but does verse 121 inform, in any way, our understanding of the PDs? Questions beget questions.

Quote from Godfrey

So to properly evaluate this hypothetical you need to get a sense of the uncertainties. We have Epicurus' letter describing his situation, but we don't know much about the shepherd. Do they love or hate their job? Are they allergic to grass? What's the breadth of their mental pleasure in this circumstance: does it align with their innermost desires? We therefore need to make up answers for all of these uncertainties, which of course is what makes this a hypothetical in the first place

It warms my heart to see someone else want more details on a hypothetical and these are ones I hadn't even thought of! Well done, Godfrey !!

Quote from Cassius

Other than PD09 does Epicurus say anything anywhere that might support the idea that pleasures are "the same"?

See my addendum edit to post 35. I'm not convinced PD09 says pleasures are the same.

I've often interpreted PD09 to mean that a pleasurable feeling is a pleasurable feeling. Condensing all or every pleasure implies that's possible... Or does it? That "if" could be doing the same work as in PD10. IF x was possible, then y. But IF x isn't possible, y isn't possible. Maybe PD09 is actually saying that all pleasures do differ from each other!

PD09, 10, and 11 all start out with ει "if..."

• If every pleasure were condensed...
• If the things that produce the delights of those who are profligate...
• If our suspicions about astronomical phenomena and about death were nothing to us...

Those "if's..." imply to me that those IF's are counterfactual! Those if's are not actually possible. That sets to a whole different vibe for each of those 3 PDs.

Don't get "the height of pleasure" or "the highest pleasure" or "the greatest pleasure" mixed up with the "greatest good." The greatest good, summum bonum, telos *is* pleasure. But I don't want to derail this thread, but I want to stress that point.

Quote from Cassius

Does that apply too to "the limit of quantity of pleasure" as referenced in PD03? If so, the PD03 is intended to mean the "limit of quantity of pleasure for YOU" or "for a particular person" is the absence of pain, rather than referring to a particular activity? And that therefore different people are going to be doing different things when they are at this limit referenced in PD03?

No.

The "limit" of pleasure is the removal of all pain, by definition. After that, it's all variation. For anyone. People are going to be doing different things to provide that variety.

Quote from Cassius

So "pleasure" is itself contextual and there is absolutely no Platonic ideal or Aristotelian essence of "Pleasure"?

The feeling of pleasure is personal and subjective.

Choices are based on context.

Quote from Cassius

So if I read you correctly, from your perspective, the "ability to share" seems to be perhaps the paramount consideration in fruitfulness and enjoyability.

Hmmm. That said, I can take pleasure in learning something new and I don't necessarily have to share everything I learn. The differences with this Epicurus week scenario is:

Would I know I know something that wasn't available to me or my Epicurean friends in modern time? Or am I simply transported into Epicurus's body with no prior knowledge of my previous existence? If the latter, I'm not worried about sharing. In the former, I'm dealing with having important knowledge that could be of use to my friends with the pain of not being able to share that knowledge with said friends.

PS. (Edit) Everything is contextual! The same pleasure in different contexts coming from different desires may lead to completely different decisions on whether one selects or flees from that pleasure.

Quote from Cassius

In this case: Are all pleasures equally to be chosen? If so, how do we choose among them? If not, why not?

No.

Epicurus was concerned with our entire existence: the well-being of both our physical (σώματος) and mental (ψυχῆς) health. By contemplating and following his philosophy, we come to understand that all our decisions of which actions to choose and from which actions to flee are going to affect whether our physical, material health and well-being are to be maintained or not and whether our minds are to be troubled or not. That is the baseline for every decision and with "Ask this question of every desire: what will happen to me if the object of desire is achieved, and what if not?"

Quote from Cassius

Another warmup question might be: "A former Torquatus put his son to death for violating a military rule, and our Torquatus justified that as a decision consistent in nature with an Epicurean perspective. This despite the other Epicurean rule that we sometimes die for a friend. Does that tell us anything about the Epicurean position for choosing among pleasures and pains?"

For the earlier Torquatus, he decided security and order in his troops was more important than the life of his son. That sounds horrific, but I'm also not an ancient Roman general commanding a legion. The fruits of his decision were strict discipline under his command. Was it worth it? Did it provide well-being? You'd have to ask Titus Manlius Imperiosus Torquatus

Titus Manlius Imperiosus Torquatus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now we're getting somewhere!

Your Menoikeus quote is an interesting one. I went back to see how I translated it:

Quote from Menoikeus, Don translation

Just as the most food is not chosen but that which brings the greatest pleasure; choose as well not the longest time but that in which one enjoys the fruits of that which bring the greatest pleasure (ἀλλὰ τὸν ἥδιστον καρπίζεται.).

The key word that gets skimmed over by a lot of translations is καρπίζεται (karpizetai) "enjoy the fruits (of that which brings the greatest pleasure (ἥδιστον hēdiston))" which is related to Latin carpo as in carpe diem "pluck/harvest the day". There's a literal sense of reaping the benefits, enjoying the fruits, of the most pleasurable experience, the sweetest choice.

By consciously choosing the hypothetical - for me! someone else's mileage may vary - that involves living in severe pain for a week then dying, whether or not I'm imbued with the knowledge of Epicurus or surrounded by his friends, doesn't sound "fruitful" to me, to riff on καρπίζεται. One, by definition of the hypothetical, couldn't "come back" and share that knowledge. But do I know I'm me living as Epicurus, or am I just Epicurus living his life with no memory of me?

This seems akin to the choice of "Would you choose to be given "god-like" knowledge for a day then die?" What good would it serve to know everything and not be able to share it?

Epicurus didn't choose to experience the severe pains of his final acute illness. That was a part of his life that wasn't up to him. How he dealt with it is admirable, maybe even inspirational. So I don't see the fruitfullness in choosing that final week. It's still the shepherd for me if I am required to choose.

If I may:

I'm trying to understand what long term pleasure I would be gaining if I chose to endure the pain of the last week of Epicurus's life. We know (or are told) he was writing letters up to his last day, or at least dictating them. But I've seen people go through kidney stones, and Epicurus's were evidently impacted and infected.

Plus do I die at the end of the week or come back to my present self? Do I get to retain all of Epicurus's knowledge? Do I get to come back and write books in Epicurus's name?

Epicureans can choose to undergo pain and hardship of it leads to long term pleasure in their lives. If I can somehow know what he knew, that's something to consider. But again, I remain skeptical of the value of these kinds of thought experiments.

Quote from Cassius

For me that one is easier I think - I would want to be able to question Epicurus in his most mature and advanced stage of life, so I would say "being with Epicurus during the last week of his life" to ask him where he eventually came down on many of these same issues we are discussing.

And i would probably include the exact question we are discussing from post one of this thread.

Ah! But how readily available would he be available that last week? How open to questions? How bedridden and in pain would be be? How much wine was he drinking to dull the pain? I can come up with all kinds of complications!

Quote from Don

Personally, I think being a student of Epicurus for a week, even his last week, is more intriguing than "being" Epicurus himself.

Which leads me to ask if a more difficult question would be:

You can travel back in time for one week (and you're able to understand and read the language, have all the proper inoculations, etc.) for a specifically Epicurean excursion. When and where do you go?

Do you spend a week:

- sitting with Epicurus as a child, badgering his teachers about the origins of Chaos

- learning with Epicurus in Lampsacus at the beginning of his philosophical work

- traveling with Epicurus when he was getting kicked out of Mytilene

- being with Epicurus during the last week of his life

- in Athens meeting with Cicero and Atticus and visiting the Garden, Academy, etc.

- visiting the Villa of the Papyri, reading in the library, and attending a 20th with Philodemus and Piso

PS. I'm intentionally leaving out spending a week living in the Garden and house with Epicurus in his prime, in the mature school surrounded by students. That'd be the easy choice for me.

Personally, I think being a student of Epicurus for a week, even his last week, is more intriguing than "being" Epicurus himself.