Posts by Don

Okay, so here is my revised nautical analogy for pleasure of the katastematic and kinetic varieties. Since I am still of the opinion that katastematic pleasures (especially ataraxia) are necessary *but not sufficient* for the pleasant life.

I'll use the sea as a metaphor for the mind which, in the end, senses all pleasurable sensations.. in fact, all sensations.

Imagine a sea that is polluted, churned up with mud, silt, and waste, with a surface whipped into whitecaps by winds and rains and storms.

The muddy, polluted, windswept, inhospitable waters are a metaphor for a mind under the influence of fears and anxieties of death, divine retribution, fear of one's neighbors, and all manner of ill-considered and false beliefs.

Cleaning the water and calming the storms brings calm, clear waters readily sailed in safety.

Only then does the clear calm water allows one to see with pleasure the bountiful life, colorful fish and other animals, the underwater corals, and the amazing sights under the water as well as to view, on the horizon, other shores that hold pleasurable experiences for one to sail to.

However, one must first achieve the calming of the storms and having clean water (katastematic pleasures) before all those other pleasures (kinetic pleasures) can be fully experienced.

I'm not saying you can't have some pleasure while rocking on a filthy, stormy sea if you batten down your hatches and sit in your cabin on your boat. But there is so much more available if you sail out of the storm and find clear waters.

Some of those storms - once you know the winds and can read the charts - can be avoided entirely. The Winds of the Fear of Death can be avoided. The Winds of the Fear of the Gods can be sailed around with assurance.

Some pain - winds, waves, etc. - is unavoidable living a human life, but one will also know the sea will calm and the waters will clear eventually.

This isn't a perfect analogy by any measure, but I think this might convey what's in my mind slightly better than the ocean and waves metaphor I've been sharing recently.

PS. I'm also going to refer back to the discussion from Summer 2022 on katastematic and kinetic (specifically my posts no. 149 and 150 at this link:

Post

RE: Do Pigs Value Katastematic Pleasure? ( Summer 2022 K / K Discussion)

@Cassius asked me:

"what would you say are the implications of your position"

Well, I was going to read all the papers, synthesize all the points, convey my agreements and objections, pull in modern and ancient citations and quotes, and...

But that seemed like way too much work and pain!!

So, what I'll do is try to summarize my thinking into some bullet points and see how far we get.

From what I read in the classical and modern sources:

- The katastematic and kinetic pleasure distinction was…

Don

July 17, 2022 at 6:51 PM

Quote from Godfrey

static v kinetic pleasures.

Don't take this as personal, but I still have issues with thinking of katastematic as "static" while acknowledging that some translations use that term. I really like the idea, that you helped me visualize Godfrey , of katastematic pleasure being the calm ocean and kinetic pleasure being the surfable waves. I don't see katastematic pleasure as static, which to me implies stagnant, stale, etc. I see it as a "ground of being" or being in a particular state of calm, ease, etc. through which one experiences other pleasure.

I also concur with the circumplex notion. I don't even think there can be a 0,0 point. It's sort of like BCE/CE (or BC/AD if you want). There is no 0 CE or 0 BCE. It's either one or the other. Same way with pleasure or displeasure. You're either experiencing one or the other.

8:15 Then I praised mirth, because there is no good for a man under the sun, but to eat, and drink, and be merry: and this shall attend him in his labour all the days of his life, which God has given him under the sun.

(Note: I don't go back to the Hebrew, but below are the Greek Septuagint translation and Jerome's Latin Vulgate translation)

8:15 καὶ ἐπῄνεσα ἐγὼ σὺν τὴν εὐφροσύνην, ὅτι οὐκ ἔστιν ἀγαθὸν τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ ὑπὸ τὸν ἥλιον, ὅτι εἰ μὴ φαγεῖν καὶ τοῦ πιεῖν καὶ τοῦ εὐφρανθῆναι, καὶ αὐτὸ συμπροσέσται αὐτῷ ἐν μόχθῳ αὐτοῦ ἡμέρας ζωῆς αὐτοῦ, ὅσας ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ Θεὸς ὑπὸ τὸν ἥλιον

8:15] laudavi igitur laetitiam quod non esset homini bonum sub sole nisi quod comederet et biberet atque gauderet et hoc solum secum auferret de labore suo in diebus vitae quos dedit ei Deus sub sole.

I found it interesting that the Septuagint uses εὐφροσύνην euphrosyne and its verb form, the feeling Epicurus identifies as a kinetic pleasure whereas Jerome decided to use two different terms. Although I know Lucretius uses gaude somewhere and possibly laetitia too.

Fascinating Wikipedia article:

Wisdom literature - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's a good one.

One of my favorite lines (in addition to Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum) is:

"Si falsum est, accingere contra."

"si tibi vera videntur, dede manus, aut, si falsum est, accingere contra"

if things seem true to you, yield to them; but if they are false, equip yourself against them (2.1042-1043)

I actually use that line on my PowerPoints when I'm teaching reference service to library staff.

Quote from Godfrey

The Great Obfuscator

Quintus Horatius Flaccus

Carmina Liber I

Carmen XI

Tu ne quaesieris, scire nefas, quem mihi, quem tibi

Finem di dederint, Leuconoe, nec Babylonios

Temptaris numeros. Ut melius quidquid erit pati,

Seu pluris hiemes seu tribuit Iuppiter ultimam,

Quae nunc oppositis debilitat pumicibus mare

Tyrrhenum: sapias, vina liques, et spatio brevi

Spem longam reseces. Dum loquimur, fugerit invida

Aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero

Horace Odes 1:11

Ask not ('tis forbidden knowledge), what our destined term of years,

Mine and yours; nor scan the tables of your Babylonish seers.

Better far to bear the future, my Leuconoe, like the past,

Whether Jove has many winters yet to give, or this our last;

This, that makes the Tyrrhene billows spend their strength against the shore.

Strain your wine and prove your wisdom; life is short; should hope be more?

In the moment of our talking, envious time has ebb'd away.

Seize* the present; trust tomorrow e'en as little as you may.

*Note: pluck, harvest is more literal

The town mouse and country mouse appears to come down on the side of φιλαγρήσειν "to love the countryside"

Quote from Horace, excerpt Satire VI

"One day a country mouse in his poor home

Received an ancient friend, a mouse from Rome:

The host, though close and careful, to a guest

Could open still: so now he did his best.

He spares not oats or vetches: in his chaps

Raisins he brings and nibbled bacon-scraps,

Hoping by varied dainties to entice

His town-bred guest, so delicate and nice,

Who condescended graciously to touch

Thing after thing, but never would take much,

While he, the owner of the mansion, sate

On threshed-out straw, and spelt and darnels ate.

At length the townsman cries: "I wonder how

You can live here, friend, on this hill's rough brow:

Take my advice, and leave these ups and downs,

This hill and dale, for humankind and towns.

Come now, go home with me: remember, all

Who live on earth are mortal, great and small:

Then take, good sir, your pleasure while you may;

With life so short, 'twere wrong to lose a day."

This reasoning made the rustic's head turn round;

Forth from his hole he issues with a bound,

And they two make together for their mark,

In hopes to reach the city during dark.

The midnight sky was bending over all,

When they set foot within a stately hall,

Where couches of wrought ivory had been spread

With gorgeous coverlets of Tyrian red,

And viands piled up high in baskets lay,

The relics of a feast of yesterday.

The townsman does the honours, lays his guest

At ease upon a couch with crimson dressed,

Then nimbly moves in character of host,

And offers in succession boiled and roast;

Nay, like a well-trained slave, each wish prevents,

And tastes before the tit-bits he presents.

The guest, rejoicing in his altered fare,

Assumes in turn a genial diner's air,

When hark! a sudden banging of the door:

Each from his couch is tumbled on the floor:

Half dead, they scurry round the room, poor things,

While the whole house with barking mastiffs rings.

Then says the rustic: "It may do for you,

This life, but I don't like it; so adieu:

Give me my hole, secure from all alarms,

I'll prove that tares and vetches still have charms."

Display More

Don: The sage will be fond of the countryside, enjoying being outside the towns and cities. (120)

Hicks: He will be fond of the country.

Yonge: He will like being in the country,

I think it's wonderful that this characteristic is a single word in the original: φιλαγρήσειν "They will love the ἀγρός "fields, land, country as opposed to the town." "

BBC Radio 4 - Natalie Haynes Stands Up for the Classics, Series 4, Horace

Natalie Haynes stands up for Roman poet Horace. With guests Llewelyn Morgan and Ben Okri.

www.bbc.co.uk

Edit: oops, I meant to put this in the Horace thread! I'm going to copy over there.

Godfrey : I literally just now finished the audiobook of Joyful. I can see why you recommend her work! The only hiccup I had was with the chapter entitled "Magic" but in the larger context, I think I got what she was getting at. I need to pay more attention to her blog too.

I'm continually intrigued by work in this area including Dr. Laurie Santos (Yale's Happiness course and her podcast), Dr. Mike Rucker (The Fun Habit), now Ingrid Lee. These all, to me, have Epicurean aspects to them: embracing joy, taking pleasure in life, gratitude, etc. Epicurus's philosophy keeps infiltrating modern life... he's just not given credit.

The Epicurean Parasite: Horace, Satires 1.1-3

We have learned a great deal in recent years about reading Horace's satires; there is now widespread agreement that the speaker of the satires is himself a…

www.academia.edu

Epicurean Ethics in Horace: The Psychology of Satire

Epicurean Ethics in Horace: The Psychology of Satire

www.academia.edu

An Epicurean “Measure of Wealth” in Horace, Satires 1.1

An Epicurean “Measure of Wealth” in Horace, Satires 1.1

www.academia.edu

Can Vergil Cry? Epicureanism in Horace Odes 1.24

Can Vergil Cry? Epicureanism in Horace Odes 1.24

www.academia.edu

This paper includes a nice short digression on parrhesia:

Happy Twentieth!

(Okay, so technically, this should have been posted on the 19th, but y'all get the idea . We could alter Philodemus's first line to accommodate today's celebration:

σήμερον εἰς λιτήν σε καλιάδα, φίλτατε Πείσων,

Today I invite you to my little hut, dearest Piso,...

It even keeps the correct long/short rhythm!)

To-morrow, dearest Piso, your friend, beloved by the Muses, who keeps our annual feast of the twentieth * invites you to come after the ninth hour to his simple cottage. If you miss udders and draughts of Chian wine, you will see at least sincere friends and you will hear things far sweeter than the land of the Phaeacians. But if you ever cast your eyes on me, Piso, we shall celebrate the twentieth richly instead of simply.

αὔριον εἰς λιτήν σε καλιάδα, φίλτατε Πείσων,

ἐξ ἐνάτης ἕλκει μουσοφιλὴς ἕταρος,

εἰκάδα δειπνίζων ἐνιαύσιον: εἰ δ᾽ ἀπολείψεις

οὔθατα καὶ Βρομίου χιογενῆ πρόποσιν,

ἀλλ᾽ ἑτάρους ὄψει παναληθέας, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπακούσῃ

Φαιήκων γαίης πουλὺ μελιχρότερα:

ἢν δέ ποτε στρέψῃς καὶ ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα, Πείσων,

ἄξομεν ἐκ λιτῆς εἰκάδα πιοτέρην.

The Greek Anthology. with an English Translation by. W. R. Paton. London. William Heinemann Ltd. 1926

The verb form of this word is what Epicurus uses to describe himself:

ἀδο-λέσχης, ου, ὁ, (adoleskhēs)

prater, idle talker, esp. of reputed sophists: Σωκράτην, τὸν πτωχὸν ἀ. Eup. 352, cf. Ar. Nu. 1485; ἢ Πρόδικος ἢ τῶν ἀ. εἷς γέ τις Id. Fr. 490; ἀ. τις σοφιστής Pl. Plt. 299b, cf. Tht. 195b, R. 488e: generally, talker, babbler, Thphr. Char. 3.2, Arist. EN 1117b35, etc.

Epicurus, On nature, book 28

Epicurus, On nature, book 28

www.academia.edu

Link to make it easier to find Sedley's translation

One of my favorite passages from Epicurus comes at the end of Book 28 of On Nature:

Quote

Nor shall I hesitate to cite repeatedly, to you and to these others, cases where there is still error of this kind among us; and so too all other cases, which are not of this kind, but ­which we would nevertheless consider to involve error. For the present, however, I do not wish to cite them, to avoid making a new start in a discussion which has already reached sufficient length. So let the words which we have prattled suffice for the present. And you others, try ten thousand times over to commit to memory what I and Metrodorus here have just said.

And now I think I have finished prattling to you this twenty-eighth instalment of our consecutive lecture series.

To me, it demonstrates:

- the use of frank criticism in the Garden by correcting errors "among us"

- Epicurus's sense of humor in using words that convey "prattling on"

- the use of lectures in the Garden

- the encouragement of memorizing texts

- the use of back and forth conversation to instruct, ie what I and Metrodorus here have just said

This little section packs a lot in.

Quote from Kalosyni

in Lucretius honey is put onto the cup of wormwood (which would be to emphasize a pleasant way of speaking).

It seems to me that Lucretius is using the honey/wormwood as a metaphor for administering medicine to a sick patient. Frank criticism is often compared to medicine as well. This is in the commentary to Philodemus' work:

Not only is frank speech "akin to friendship," it is the "language of friendship" and the "most potent medicine in friendship," to be employed in mutual moral reform among friends.

Lucretius uses a pleasant method of delivery (poetry) to administer what some see as bitter medicine (no afterlife, no gods looking over us, etc.). Once administered, however, the philosophy does the person good, in fact cures them of fear and anxiety etc. Frank criticism is another tool to administer medicine.

Here are some quotes from On Frank Criticism talking about treating (θεραπεύειν therapeuein) patients/students:

Col. XVIIa: ...but when they observe that their character is prone to error, they are stung. And just like those who call skilled doctors to an operation when they apply the scalpel to those who are ill , so too when what is stinging in frank criticism meets the eye of these people and they believe that they will commit no error, or that they will escape notice even if they have erred many

times, they call upon {their teachers} to admonish...

Fr. 40: ...for it is necessary to show him his errors forthrightly and speak of his failings publicly. For if he has considered this man to be the one guide of right speech and [action], whom he calls the only savior, and {to whom}, citing the phrase, "with him accompanying {me}," he has given himself over to be treated, then how is he not going to show to him those things in which he needs treatment, and [accept admonishment]?

Fr. 79 (=81 N): ...{so that} he can be treated either by us or by another of his fellow-students, and not to do it {i.e., criticize frankly} continually, nor against everyone, nor every chance error, nor {errors} of those whom one should not {criticize}when they are present, nor with merriment, but rather [to take up the errors] sympathetically [and not to] scorn [or insult] on..

Oh, and as far as studying in the Garden, it's interesting to note that On Nature , either all the volumes or specific volumes, was actually a lecture series of Epicurus. There was a lot of attendance at talks by the teachers.

Quote from Kalosyni

in Lucretius honey is put onto the cup of wormwood (which would be to emphasize a pleasant way of speaking).

It seems to me that Lucretius is using the honey/wormwood as a metaphor for administering medicine to a sick patient. Frank criticism is often compared to medicine as well. This is in the commentary to Philodemus' work:

Not only is frank speech "akin to friendship," it is the "language of friendship" and the "most potent medicine in friendship," to be employed in mutual moral reform among friends.

Philodemus uses a pleasant method of delivery (poetry) to administer what some see as bitter medicine (no afterlife, no gods looking over us, etc.). Once administered, however, the philosophy does the person good, in fact cures them of fear and anxiety etc. Frank criticism is another tool to administer medicine.

Ex. From above book...