Posts by Don

I noticed this thread has gotten 1.2K views in a little over a week. Hopefully, we'll make some people take a second look at what's considered "common knowledge" on the issue of Epicurus's Birthday.

Quote from Kalosyni

Okay, so even though everyone has the Wikipedia calculations (and I must be clearly wrong) -- I made a graphic to explain (the colored text is only to make it more readable).

What I am saying is that you only count the increase or the decrease of the shape of the moon.

OH! I see what your referring to. Thanks for graphic.

From my understanding, the moon is always either waxing, full, waning or new.

If I read the Wikipedia table right, There are only 30 days in the cycle from one new moon to the next, so they're counting every day between new and new.

Let me see if I can convey what I'm thinking using this table and the moon chart

YAY! I took the "early sunset" color!

PS: Changed my mind! I'm taking the blue sky moon!

Quote from Cassius

I was thinking you were asking for maybe some "pale" variations that sort of match the sky?

That was what was in my mind too

Quote from Cassius

Hows that for a series of "natural" colors -- especially the fluorescent purple!

L L! Enthusiasm got the best of me

Quote from Cassius

Should lend itself to color variations if the similarity gets too confusing! I probably won't switch but I do like it too!

That's a good idea. At least natural colors like hues of red, yellow, blue, etc.

What do you think, Eikadistes ?

Eikadistes : I hope you don't mind but I'm trying out your 20er avatar, too. Let me know y'all if that's too confusing and I'll go back to my tetradrachm

Quote from Kalosyni

"when the first sliver of moon was visible" -- by my method that would 1st day waxing

Right. Using the Nov/Dec calendars above, to my understanding:

The noumenia or the first sliver of waxing would be Nov. 24 or 25.

The 10th would be Dec. 3

The 20th or "earlier 10th" would be Dec. 13 or 14.

Then the final 10 waning days count down toward the next noumenia.

So the 20th day of the lunar month would always look the same.

Quote from Kalosyni

By my counting then, the 20th (which would be the 2nd 10th) would fall on the last day of a visible waning crescent.

Wouldn't the "earlier tenth" (20th) look like the moon on the above charts on Dec. 13 or 14th? The Noumenia seems to have started when the "first sliver" of the new moon was visible.

Noumenia - Wikipedia

btw, I really like this line of thinking of Kalosyni and the graphics that Eikadistes has been working up!!

Thanks for that reminder, Joshua ! You're absolutely right. The fact that we can even have this discussion about *conflicting* ideas from a day 2,400 years ago is amazing!

Let's pare that pertinent sentence down to its bare bones:

Ἐγεννήθη δέ, φησὶν Ἀπολλόδωρος ἐν Χρονικοῖς, κατὰ τὸ τρίτον ἔτος τῆς ἐνάτης καὶ ἑκατοστῆς Ὀλυμπιάδος ἐπὶ Σωσιγένους ἄρχοντος μηνὸς γαμηλιῶνος ἑβδόμῃ,

Ἐγεννήθη "he was born"

φησὶν Ἀπολλόδωρος ἐν Χρονικοῖς

Apollodorus says in (his) Chronicle

δέ is just the conjunction "and, so, etc."

κατὰ τὸ τρίτον ἔτος τῆς ἐνάτης καὶ ἑκατοστῆς Ὀλυμπιάδος

during the 3rd year (τὸ τρίτον ἔτος) of the 109th Olympiad

ἐπὶ Σωσιγένους ἄρχοντος

in the archonship of Sosigenēs

μηνὸς γαμηλιῶνος ἑβδόμῃ,

μηνὸς "month" noun singular masculine genitive of μήν

γαμηλιῶνος "Gamelion" noun singular masculine genitive

ἑβδόμῃ "seventh" adjective singular *feminine* dative

ἑβδόμης adjective singular *feminine* genitive

ἑβδόμη adjective singular *feminine* nominative

Words in ancient Greek have to agree with each other in number, case, and gender. Every permutation I've seen of "seventh" is *feminine*. There's no word in that sentence that seems to fit with being modified by a feminine adjective. There has to be a seventh something. However, used by itself it can mean "the seventh one" as in

ἡ ἑβδόμη "the seventh day". So, my theory continues to be "of (the) month of Gamelion, (the) seventh one (i.e., seventh month).

Just this morning, I had a thought on codex Parisinus gr. 1759 (14th c.) known as P.

Look at that manuscript, and it looks like the actual spelling of the word that everyone just translates as "seven/th". To me it looks like:

ευδομ(*superscript*) and not εβδομ/. Well, lol and behold, according to LSJ "εὕδομος" is Boeotian for ἕβδομος!

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ε , εὐδιά-φθαρτος , εὕδομος

And Boeotia didn't use Gamelion as the name of a month. So, here's my scenario: Somewhere along the line, Apollodorus's work was copied by a scribe from Boeotia who didn't think his readers would know what Gamelion was, so he decided to put in the word "seventh" in his dialect as opposed to "standard" Greek to make sure to specify Gamelion was the seventh month.

All this is wild conjecture on my part, but I've seen academic theories built on less

If anyone wants to join in the fun of transliterating ancient Greek manuscripts:

An introduction to Greek and Latin palaeography : Thompson, Edward Maunde, Sir, 1840-1929 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xvi, 600 p. : 26 cm

archive.org

Quote from Nate

it seems like he could have easily verified Epicurus', particularly given his popularity and the availability of documentation.

That's assuming Apollodorus *wanted* to verify it.

Quote from Nate

Apollodorus of Athens could have used the word "seventh" as a gloss to to clarify which month on the Attic calendar corresponded with "Gamelion" because there were dozens of dissimilar calendars in the ancient world and informing the reader which sequentially-numbered month they were in helps provide context.

Remember, too, that Diogenes Laertius (DL) would not have been using the autographs from Apollodorus's own hand. DL was probably using a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of Apollodorus's Chronicle from possibly decades if not hundreds of years later. A later scribe could have easily inserted a 7 or Z or VII or εβδομ* into their copy of the manuscript to make help show what Gamelion was in the ancient Athenian calendar. Especially since Gamelion and similar sounding months were different numbers for different city-states. Maybe Apollodorus never even wrote the word "seven/th"! Then the word or symbol got transposed, misinterpreted, etc., etc., etc. As I understand it, the only "copy" of this Fragment about Epicurus's birthday is preserved in Book 10 of DL's book!!

Another line of interest for me is the line in Epicurus's Will:

καὶ ἡμῖν εἰς τὴν εἰθισμένην ἄγεσθαι γενέθλιον ἡμέραν ἑκάστου ἔτους τῇ προτέρᾳ δεκάτῃ τοῦ Γαμηλιῶνος, ὥσπερ καὶ εἰς τὴν γινομένην σύνοδον ἑκάστου μηνὸς ταῖς εἰκάσι τῶν συμφιλοσοφούντων ἡμῖν εἰς τὴν ἡμῶν τε καὶ Μητροδώρου <μνήμην> κατατεταγμένην.

Epicurus talks about celebrating his birthday on the 20th of Gamelion, ὥσπερ..

ὥσπερ means "like as, even as" the members of the school assemble every month on the 20th in remembrance of Metrodorus and Epicurus. That like as seems to me to say "Keep celebrating my birthday as we have been on Gamelion 20 just like we meet on the 20th of every month to remember Metrodorus and me." The discrepancy of Gamelion 7 and 20 is resolved elegantly by the fact that Gamelion was the 7th month of the Attic calendar in Epicurus's and Apollodorus's time.

Quote from Nate

Nearly every day of the Attic month is holy on some level, and has some symbolic meaning, and we already discussed the Attic symbology of the Seventh. It seems to me that Epicurus having been being born on the 20th is what makes the Twentieth significant

That is *exactly* where I'm coming down on this.

Quote from Nate

The following is my attempt to paraphrase the author: "Numerous translators differ about the spelling of the ancient Greek word for 'seventh' as presented in the original text. The difference in translation could be the difference between 'the seventh month of Gamelion' versus 'the month of Gamelion's seventh'. One authority says hebdómēi. Another says hebdómē. Yet another says hebdómēs. As it turns out, I agree with the interpretation that lends credence to the proposition that 'the seventh' is an adjective that describes "the month" and not a noun indicating 'the nth sequential day'".

Yes, that's my general take, too.

Quote from Nate

Do they expect their readers to speak ancient Greek and can read Usener in Latin without a problem?)

LOL. Yes, I do think they expect that! And, most likely, most of them can/could. I doubt they ever considered us lay researchers being interested in their esoteric work!

Here's a link to Wilamowitz's work Aristoteles und Athen. On p. 190 it says:

geburtstage können nur gelegentlich wie bei Epikur und in seinem kreise geschichtlich sein ; Sokrates und Piaton haben mythische.

Birthdays can only occasionally be historical, as with Epicurus and in his circle; Socrates and Plato have mythical ones.

That implies to me that Epicurus's birthday was only considered important within his circle/school. Socrates' and Plato's took on mythic proportions due to their (undue) stature within Greek philosophy.

Quote from Nate

How is this known? By whom? If he gave the days of Socrates and Plato, would it not be reasonable to assume that he would do the same for Epicurus, another Hegemon?

Epicurus was "the most reviled and most revered" so any number of authors wouldn't feel his exact birthdate warranted mention. I don't see why we would expect every author - especially the student of Stoics! - to bother with recording Epicurus's birthdate. Plus, Diogenes Laertius included Epicurus's Will which (to me) gives his birthdate anyway. Not everyone wants to acknowledge the importance of Epicurus!

You've been busy, Eikadistes . Let me try and give my responses (if warranted) chronologically from your posts. And I agree that Lewis's short work is obscure and wrapped in the jargon of Academia. I'm working my way through it, but I do find the 7th month idea intriguing to say the least....

Quote

Long’s apparatus gives: ἑβδόμη [hebdómē] Bpc: έβδομης [hebdómēs] FP: om. Bac. (But see Usener’s apparatus on B, Epicurea, 366.)"

Honestly, I got hung up on "apparatus" right away, on top of the abbreviated citations, etc. I had to look it up, and it appears, according to the Oxford English Dictionary: "Materials for the critical study of a document. In full critical apparatus: = apparatus criticus n." So, it's just shorthand for a researcher's materials they've cobbled together taken as a whole. B, F, and P are all Diogenes Laertius manuscripts:

"B 1. The oldest representative of the first class is B, the Codex Borbonicus gr. iii. B. 29 (formerly 253), a parchment codex of the twelfth century, in the public library at Naples: it was corrected by a hand of the fourteenth century whose readings not infrequently agree with those of Co." (Bailey: Epicurus: The Extant Remains) The superscripts of B appear to be different copies of the original B manuscript.

Here is the pertinent section of what I *think* is codex Parisinus gr. 1759 (14th c.) known as P. The 4th line is where the Gamelion line is which looks to me line .... μηνος γαμηλιωνος *βδομ*... I'm not sure what the superscripts before and after *βδομ* are.

Here is end of the section in manuscript codex Laurentianus LXIX. 35 (14th c.) known as H. This is the top of the folio with the ending of Gamelionos from the previous page: [γαμηλι]ωνος εβδομ**. Again, I'm not sure what to make of the superscripts but it looks to me like -Ης so έβδομης which appears to be modifying Gameliōnos. But why would ebdomēs be feminine and the name be masculine? Is it attached to the earlier της? Is it something like "the month of Gamelion, the seventh one" which is not an uncommon construction (e.g., the ball, the red one):

Unfortunately, I couldn't get to the other manuscripts or they aren't available digitized.

Usener's apparatus on B on p.366 of Epicurea reads:

The note on line 17 is the one that is pertinent to the Gamelion 7 issue. Which, using my rudimentary Latin (and Google Translate) reads something like:

"|| 17 between μηνὸς and τῆς there is one empty space, and what is left in verse B1 παπυλεῶνος ἑβδόμη. ... ἔτεσιν ὕστερον he supplied B2 | ἑβδόμη B2: ἑβδόμης FPQHf"

So, Usener seems to be saying that manuscript B2 had εβδομη while manuscripts F, P, Q, Hf had εβδομης. I have no idea what παπυλεωνος refers to, and Gamelionos makes more sense in context. I'm also now sure how "he" is when Usener refers to "he supplied." Usener seems to think the εβδομης, the genitive singular feminine form of έβδομος, is supported by 4 manuscripts while the other is supported by a version of B. Is he saying that "he" supplied εβδομη(ς) in the "one empty space" between μηνὸς and τῆς which would imply something like "the seventh month of Gamelion"?

I realize I'm not even a couple lines into replying to your posts, but there's a lot here so I'm going to his Reply here and open a new post.

Eikadistes :

From Lewis, "Two Days" (1969)

I'm digging into all the citations and references.

Quote from Nate

I would like to see the original fragment from Apollodorus of Athens if it is available.

I get the impression that the Chronicle only exists in fragments, including in Diogenes Laertius

Apollodorus: Chronicle

I'm consolidating some papers and other sources that acknowledge τῃ προτέρᾳ δεκατῃ (“the early tenth”) referring to “the twentieth”. My goal is to get this all in one spot about the 7, 10, and 20 of Gamelion.

Over the next few days is the goal!

Cain's book was a revelation for me. Specifically, she talked about introverts who can be gregarious at parties, great public speakers, etc., but who also get exhausted by that (even though they find it enjoyable!) and need alone time to "recharge their batteries." I was like "Hey! I recognize that person!"

I hope you enjoy it. I think she has some videos or TED Talks on her introvert research too if you don't want to read the whole book.