Epicurean substitute for prayer

This is quite thought provoking Martin !

Overall, I like it. But in the spirit of inquiry, can we really say that we don't have any beliefs without becoming Skeptics? For instance, I believe that I'm not a brain in a vat. Do I know that? I think so, but I could be wrong. I believe what science tells me, to the extent of my understanding as a lay person. Do I know it? Not really, I'm accepting the information provided by people that I consider honest and better informed than me. More "knowledgeable."

belief

1. 1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. "his belief in the value of hard work"
2. 2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something. "I've still got belief in myself"

knowledge

1. 1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject. "a thirst for knowledge"
   
2. 2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation. "the program had been developed without his knowledge"

Thanks for posting this: it's a good opportunity to clarify the definitions and ramifications of the terms knowledge and belief.

I think what you're talking about Godfrey is why DeWitt talks a lot about "faith" in Epicurean philosophy (if I recall correctly) in which I gather that he's talking about a blend of confidence based on information that we know to be limited but which we have good reason to think is sound. So just like a lot of words we have to parse "belief" and even "faith" to be sure exactly what we mean.

Reminds me of my high school's motto which was Fide sed cui vide which they used to translate as "have faith but be careful in what"

Coincidentally, I just listened to this podcast which has a conversation on beliefs and science, beginning in the second half of the podcast.

Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda - James Zimring: Fuzzy thinking and the Big Whopper

Too many of us instinctively feel that a quarter pound hamburger is bigger than a third of a pound. And that’s just one of the mistakes we make in too quickly…

podcasts.google.com

That's a good high school motto BTW.

Quote from Godfrey

Coincidentally, I just listened to this podcast which has a conversation on beliefs and science, beginning in the second half of the podcast.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6L…4NTFlZWE0?ep=14

That's a good high school motto BTW.

Thanks for the Alan Alda podcast reminder! Big fan but he got pushed down within my subscriptions.

The closest the ancient Epicureans got to a creed in my opinion was the Tetrapharmakos.

Quote from Cassius

So just like a lot of words we have to parse "belief" and even "faith" to be sure exactly what we mean.

Somewhere I have an etymology book that indicates “believe” in English originally meant “to hold dear.” This seems to have been (e.g. in the KJV Bible) a valid (if perhaps poetic) rendering of the Greek pisteo.

Cognates of “believe” include lief, leave, furlough, love.

But the word came to mean “what one thinks” – rather than a confidence or trust – which is what I take “faith” (in a very mundane sense) to mean. Christians often tend to take both terms to mean what one is certain of, regardless of actual evidence (as in the phrase “I believe in”) – whereas I view “faith” more as an attitude of – decisional – confidence in the face of uncertainty; something how the sports psychologists use it.

For myself, I only use the word “believe” (or “belief” ) in the fairly mundane sense of: “it seems to me” or “it appears to be so” or “I think so” or “the evidence indicates that …”. Thus, it always something “checkable” empirically.

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Some years ago, I wrote a whimsy poem playing with the cognate words mentioned above:

Belief

(an etymological poem)

What is belief except to give leave
to what your own heart’s desire
would lief allow for you to follow,
and to hallow always with your love?
That is as much as I will believe—
so long as beauty is safely left,
her colorful tapestries, without
furlough, to weave. As for all the rest:
An it will harm none, do as ye lief
and may all be well—beyond belief.

I really think it is not a good poem – but it was fun to write.

Reminds of the time George R. R. Martin discovered the word 'leal' and used it in every 4th sentence...in a sequel. Pretty jarring!

This part of the thread does seem to revolve around something like the Greek πιστεύω pisteuō, from which I thought - up until 30 seconds ago! - we got the word epistemology.

πιστεύω pisteuō

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, πιστ-εύω

Epistemology on the other hand:

Etymology Online: "theory of knowledge," 1856, coined by Scottish philosopher James F. Ferrier (1808-1864) from Greek episteme "knowledge, acquaintance with (something), skill, experience," from Ionic Greek epistasthai "know how to do, understand," literally "overstand," from epi "over, near" (see epi-) + histasthai "to stand," from PIE root *sta- "to stand, make or be firm."

Etymology from ἐπί (epí) +‎ ἵστημι (hístēmi)

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, ἐπίσταμαι

So, epistemology seems to conjure up for me that idea of the Epicureans being "dogmatic" in that they were "making a stand" They were willing to take a firm position as opposed to remaining forever skeptical and puzzled.

btw, I like that word "overstand"! I think I would much rather overstand something than understand it

I thought I had posted about prayer previously and sure enough - 2 years ago - I was going through Obbink's translation and commentary on On Piety:

Post

RE: Philodemus On Piety

προσευχεσθαι γαρ εν τωι Περί [Βιων] οικείον είναι [ημεί]ν φησίν.

I promised something on prayer yesterday, so to fulfill my self-imposed obligation , here's what Epicurus said about prayer according to column 26 of On Piety. The original is above and is mostly intact in the papyrus.

For he says in the On Ways of Life, προσευχεσθαι is οικείον for us.

προσευχεσθαι [proseukhesthai] means "prayer", specifically to offer prayers or vows; offer prayers or worship. The word can be broken down…

Don

December 16, 2020 at 11:05 PM

Not that it's any great insight! Just thought y'all could find it interesting.

Quote from Joshua

Reminds of the time George R. R. Martin discovered the word 'leal' and used it in every 4th sentence...in a sequel. Pretty jarring!

Ha! I often catch myself re-using a word that I've become enamored of in successive poems -- so I try to be wary ...  

Quote from Martin

Epicurean non-belief creed

First draft:

I do not have any beliefs.

I know some stuff.

I know that some of my knowledge may be wrong.

I know that there is a lot more stuff which I do not know.

I know that there is stuff of which I do not even know that I do not know of it.

This very partial knowledge does not compel me to any belief, because so far, I have acquired any knowledge needed to enable a pleasurable life, and I am confident to keep this attitude until death terminates my existence.

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Possible re-phrasing:

Epicurean Creed

Knowledge and faith in that knowledge must be backed by observation by the senses (or as augmented by trustworthy tools which can accurately take measurements).

And if someone else is making the observations we must have adequate trust that they know how to correctly make observations. The correct way to make observations is: 1) to make sure that we are not confusing our observations with any opinions about what we wish to be true and so we must have the ability to separate our observations from our opinions 2) we make sure we have gathered enough evidence before drawing a conclusion. When making conclusions: 1) we understand that correlation does not imply causation 2) we cannot put our faith in something unless we know that the observations were correct and that the conclusion drawn is sound.

I think this is worthwhile to do, and this may still need adjustment or more added.

Quote

We’ve all been told that correlation does not imply causation. Yet many business leaders, elected officials, and media outlets still make causal claims based on misleading correlations. These claims are too often unscrutinized, amplified, and mistakenly used to guide decisions.

Examples abound: Consider a recent health study that set out to understand whether taking baths can reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease. The analysis found that people who took baths regularly were less likely to have cardiovascular disease or suffer strokes. The authors conclude that the data suggests “a beneficial effect” of baths. Without a controlled experiment, or a natural experiment, one in which subjects are chosen randomly and without variable manipulation, it’s hard to know whether this relationship is causal. For example, it’s possible that regular bath takers are generally less stressed and have more free time to relax, which could be the real reason they have lower rates of heart disease. Still, these findings were widely circulated, with headlines like, “Taking a bath isn’t just relaxing. It could also be good for your heart.”

A large body of research in behavioral economics and psychology has highlighted systematic mistakes we can make when looking at data. We tend to seek evidence that confirms our preconceived notions and ignore data that might go against our hypotheses. We neglect important aspects of the way that data was generated. More broadly, it’s easy to focus on the data in front of you, even when the most important data is missing. As Nobel Laureate Daniel Kahneman has said, it can be as if “what you see is all there is.”

This can lead to mistakes and avoidable disasters, whether it’s an individual, a company, or a government that’s making the decision. The world is increasingly filled with data, and we are regularly bombarded with facts and figures. We must learn to analyze data and assess causal claims — a skill that is increasingly important for business and government leaders.

https://hbr.org/2021/11/leader…-with-causation

Wikipedia article on the correlation / causation issue. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlati…imply_causation

Lots of subtleties because you wouldn't want to suggest that correlation is somehow itself misleading ... The issue seems to be that the error is in giving it more weight than it deserves rather than saying that it should be given no weight at all as an indicator and making sure that all other circumstances are given appropriate weight.

Kalosymi can you pithily condense to match Martin's formulation?

Quote from camotero

Regarding my original post, the winner was this:

“We are very thankful

We are very glad

For friends we meet

And food we eat

For home and mom and dad.”

Winner because my wife and kid loved it, and we prayed it together and no supernatural beings took part.

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Thank you Mathitis Kipouros, I think this question you brought up and the result is very good (provided by Don in post 4). And this seems like a good prayer for children.

As adults, especially ones who were raised in church, it might be good to also create adult Epicurean prayers. And there are various reasons for prayer: for when there is anxiety regarding the uncertainty of the future, for when there are difficult challenges, or for when there is sadness or illness. And also there is giving thanks and gratitude, at meals, at bedtime, and when waking in the morning. And I think it would be a good thing to add here to this thread -- and I will see if I can come up with anything and post soon. And Pacatus and Joshua with your poetic abilities if you have any adult prayer ideas you can come up with, please add

Quote from Cassius

Kalosymi can you pithily condense to match Martin's formulation?

I suppose my version in post 52 is very different than Martin's formlation (too different). Also, I still need to study PD24 to get more clear on that.

Quote from Kalosyni

I suppose my version in post 52 is very different than Martin's formlation (too different).

It's a good start and working through revisions and alternatives is always helpful

Kalosyni

In the plain prayer of breathing –

life-giving pleasure of breath,

I [we] give thanks – and rest.

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For me, the best prayers are brief: easy to remember. And brevity poetry (like haiku) is deceptively hard.

This one could preface a period (perhaps just a few moments) of silent prayer/meditation, focusing on the pleasure of your breathing (an Epicurean spin on breathing meditation), returning to that as unwanted thoughts intrude.

The Trappist tradition of contemplative “centering prayer” uses a simple “sacred word” – not like a mantra, but simply to return to silent-mind prayer when thoughts arise. One would enunciate the word slowly. One could use an “Epicurean” word like hedone. Or pneuma, which can mean breath as well as spirit or soul. Or eudaimonia. (Just notions that came quickly.)

I’ll keep thinking …

Quote from Pacatus

For me, the best prayers are brief: easy to remember.

That's always been one of my reasons for advocating for the Tetrapharmakos

Quote from Don

That's always been one of my reasons for advocating for the Tetrapharmakos

That is both simple and familiar to an Epicurean. The usual English translations, though, seem more like instructions or rubrics, rather than self-expressive prayer or meditative affirmations. And not everyone will find the Greek either resonant or easy to remember/recite.