Posts by Don

  • The Importance Of The Perfect Not Being Allowed To Be The Enemy of The Good

    Quote from Nate

    TAΓAϴON seems to have a similar application, in that the word popularly connotes a perfect, transcendental principle, but also literally refers to that objects that create pleasurable feelings, or pleasure itself.

    I'm not sure if I agree with the definition there.

    Nicomachean Ethics starts out with:

    “Every art and every investigation, and likewise every practical pursuit or undertaking, seems to aim at some good: hence it has been well said that the Good is That at which all things aim.”

    This sets up the difference between “some/a good thing” ἀγαθοῦ and The Good Thing τἀγαθόν.

  • Episode 174 - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 26 - Chapter 12 - The New Hedonism 03

    Quote from Cassius

    SOCRATES: I omit ten thousand other things, such as beauty and health and strength, and the many beauties and high perfections of the soul: O my beautiful Philebus, the goddess, methinks, seeing the universal wantonness and wickedness of all things, and that there was in them no limit to pleasures and self-indulgence, devised the limit of law and order, whereby, as you say, Philebus, she torments, or as I maintain, delivers the soul. — What think you, Protarchus? …

    I admit I need to read Philebus in full, but, just riffing on the above excerpts + Seneca, it seems to meet that Plato (via "Socrates") is conflating (on purpose) pleasure and desire. The *desire* for pleasure is infinite; and the things (mental and physical) from which we can derive pleasure are probably innumerable. But pleasure, as a feeling, is limited to the point where there is no pain, when the body is satiated. Full satisfaction is the limit of pleasure. I think Epicurus had that absolutely correct. The other philosophers took for granted (from *their* perspective!) that pleasure was bad, base, inferior and then designed their philosophy around that "a priori knowledge." Epicurus started from the ground up to investigate where pleasure came from, and decided it was nature's natural "stop and go" signals, then began to philosophize how we interact with pleasure.

  • The Importance Of The Perfect Not Being Allowed To Be The Enemy of The Good

    Quote from Cassius

    And it may also be exactly the same point as with the "greatest good" which exists only in Platonic ideal status.

    Νο. No, no, no.

    "The greatest good" did not only exist in "Platonic ideal status." Epicurus was more than happy to discuss - to proclaim - "the greatest good" on the same terms as his rivals and predecessors but his declaration was rooted in the real world of experience, of feeling. Epicurus declared that The Good was not some ethereal ideal form. It was pleasure, the feeling of pleasure.

    The word in ancient Greek that Aristotle uses, that they all use when talking about "The Good," is ταγαθον (tagathon). ταγαθον literally means "The Good Thing" or just "The Good." That is the exact word Epicurus uses when saying:

    Quote

    [It is observed too that in his treatise On the Ethical End (Περὶ τέλους Peri telous/telos) he writes in these terms:] "I know not how to conceive the good (τἀγαθόν), apart from the pleasures of taste, sexual pleasures, the pleasures of sound and the pleasures of beautiful form."

    "Οὐ γὰρ ἔγωγε ἔχω τί νοήσω τἀγαθόν, ἀφαιρῶν μὲν τὰς διὰ χυλῶν ἡδονάς, ἀφαιρῶν δὲ τὰς δι᾽ ἀφροδισίων καὶ τὰς δι᾽ ἀκροαμάτων καὶ τὰς διὰ μορφῆς."

    The "greatest good" is the reason - the final reason, the end reason, the goal, the limit, the telos - of why we do what we do. It is the reason left at the top of the heap after we answer every other question "Why do you do what you do?" The "greatest good" is that toward which every other good thing aims.

    Epicurus also used the word in one of Cassius' favorite sayings:

    Like unto this is that of Epicurus, where he saith: The very nature of The Good (τὴν τἀγαθοῦ φύσιν) arises from the escaping of bad, and a man's recollecting, considering, and rejoicing within himself that this hath befallen him. For what occasions transcending joy (he saith) is some great impending evil escaped; and in this lies the very nature and essence of "good" (ἀγαθοῦ), if a man attain unto it aright, and contain himself when he hath done, and not ramble and prate idly about "good" (ἀγαθοῦ). (Source with my edits)

    τἀγαθόν is also the word used by Philodemus and/or the later Epicureans in the Tetrapharmakos for “The Good (τἀγαθόν) is easy to obtain.”

    Quote from Cassius

    maybe that's exactly why Epicurus recommended against walking around obsessing over the meaning of "good."

    He lampooned the Peripatetics (Aristotle's school who "strolled around") for the kind of circular arguments and hair-splitting about what "good" means like Aristotle displays in his Nichomachean Ethics. The Epicureans, starting from Epicurus himself, felt that they had answered the question "what is ταγαθον 'The Good'?" once and for all. They answered "What is the good thing at which all other good things and our actions aims?" Epicurus and the Epicureans all used that word ταγαθον deliberately and purposefully to drive the point home that they had answered that question decisively, finally, and there was no need - had never been a need! - to "stroll around endlessly prattling on" about what "good" meant. You can FEEL The Good. It's right here, now, in our bodies and our minds. All good things point to The Good Thing which is pleasure. Pleasure is the only thing good in and of itself. We do all our actions for it, at their root. Keep asking "Why?" and the final answer, the final good thing at the root of it all is pleasure.

  • Paul Bloom Dancing on the Head of a Pin

    Hedonism is overrated – to make the best of life there must be pain, says this Yale professor
    The most satisfying lives are those which involve challenge, fear and struggle, says psychologist Paul Bloom
    www.theguardian.com

    This is an article - definitely not Epicurean! - by Paul Bloom that summarizes his recent book on the importance of suffering, challenge, and meaning in life. Pleasure isn't enough, he says.

    I have real problems with his general thesis and wordplay.

    He keeps using words like satisfaction and dances around Epicurus's notion of a pleasurable life.

    Quote from Bloom

    I argue that we don’t only seek pleasure, we also want to live meaningful lives– – and this involves willingly experiencing pain, anxiety, and struggle. We see value in chosen suffering.

    But why do we "want meaningful lives"? Because we derive pleasure from that, I would say. Epicurus himself acknowledged that we will sometimes undertake pain for long-term pleasure. Bloom would call that "satisfaction" not pleasure. The Cambridge dictionary defines "satisfaction" as "a pleasant feeling that you get when you receive something you wanted, or when you have done something you wanted to do." Look at that! Pleasure!

    So, I'd be curious to hear opinions from y'all.

  • Training book/framework for new Epicureans

    Quote from Cassius

    Yes I can definitely be harsh on the Stoics on occasion, but in reading a little more into Emily Austin's book tonight I came across a couple of relevant paragraphs from Chapter 15 that remind me to keep the pressure on due to the different approaches to dealing with what is and what is not in our control

    Oh, I agree with your sentiment there, Cassius . We certainly have precedent for forcefully engaging with "our rivals" from the earliest students (and founder) of the Garden. The only caveat I'd offer is to make sure we're sticking to facts about their philosophy and not engaging in stereotyping. Not that you were doing that in #13 necessarily, but we have to be sure we're being frank about the real tenets of their philosophy so they can't accuse us of "not understanding" it. That's why Dr. Austin's regularly bringing up specifics is important. The Epicurean fact of "the way things are" that bad things that happen are just bad and painful and not part of a providential plan is so important. To a Stoic, the death of a loved one (if Stoics can even use that term), including a child, is of no consequence to one's happiness. Epicureans understand the "bite" of grief and provide ways to cope. Dr. Austin also brings up the Stoic idea that friends are there to allow the Stoic to practice virtue, but friends are just a "preferred indifferent" and aren't necessary to one's well-being. Those are the kind of specific "practices" and ideas that make Stoicism unsatisfactory and unsatisfying to me. She does a great job of laying those kinds of things out in that podcast episode... Right on the Stoics' own turf!

  • Training book/framework for new Epicureans

    I have to agree with TauPhi in post #14 above.

    To "Thrive in a World Out of Your Control" strikes me as an invitation to understand what is and is not out of one's control, and to learn to control what is... Or as TauPhi says:

    Quote from TauPhi

    I don't think Stoics wanted to gain control over things out of control. They rather focused on how to deal best (in their understanding of the word) with things in control and not to care too much about things out of control.

    That said, the Stoics and Epicureans had very different ways of defining that concept and how to deal with it.

  • Training book/framework for new Epicureans

    One last thought for now, with the caveat that I only flirted with Stoicism for a short time before finding Epicurus, so I'm not steeped in the philosophy.

    It seems to me that Stoics want to say "In situation A, one will always do X."

    The paradigm of virtue ethics seems to want absolutes: ex., Lying is *always* wrong.

    Epicureanism seems more nuanced. Personal responsibility for one's choices and actions is front and center in Epicurus's philosophy, but virtuous, noble, and just actions and choices are governed by each individual situation. There is no "If A, then X" formula to apply. It's more keeping one's eye on the end/goal/"highest good" which is pleasure. What choices will lead to a pleasurable life?

  • PD01 - Gratitude and Weakness (Especially In Relation to the Gods)

    I just realized my post on another thread directly addresses this threads topic:

    Post

    RE: Quotes from Karl Krohn's dissertation "Der Epikureer Hermarchos"

    The next citation is to Philodemus On Anger, pherc. 182, col. 43, lines 16-23:

    https://papyri.info/dclp/62390

    ..., ὥστε καὶ τοῦτον

    ἀσθενῆ ποιεῖν, οὐ παρενο-

    χλήσει, καθάπερ ἐν[ί]οις, οἳ

    πάνδεινον ἡγήσαντο, ταῖς

    20 Κυρίαις Δόξαις ἀντιγρά-

    φοντες, εἰ τετόλμηκέ τις

    ἐν ἀσθενείαι λέγειν ὀ̣ργὴν

    καὶ χάριτα καὶ πᾶν τὸ τοι-

    οῦτον,...

    Don
    May 16, 2023 at 7:50 AM

    From Philodemus On Anger.

  • Quotes from Karl Krohn's dissertation "Der Epikureer Hermarchos"

    The next citation is to Philodemus On Anger, pherc. 182, col. 43, lines 16-23:

    DCLP/Trismegistos 62390 = LDAB 3555

    ..., ὥστε καὶ τοῦτον

    ἀσθενῆ ποιεῖν, οὐ παρενο-

    χλήσει, καθάπερ ἐν[ί]οις, οἳ

    πάνδεινον ἡγήσαντο, ταῖς

    20 Κυρίαις Δόξαις ἀντιγρά-

    φοντες, εἰ τετόλμηκέ τις

    ἐν ἀσθενείαι λέγειν ὀ̣ργὴν

    καὶ χάριτα καὶ πᾶν τὸ τοι-

    οῦτον,...

  • Quotes from Karl Krohn's dissertation "Der Epikureer Hermarchos"

    Referring back to fr.28 referred to in post # 3 above, out doesn't seem to say what Krohn implies that it says. The first citation on p.28 is to Philodemus, pherc.1005, column 8, lines 18-19.

    The book states :

    εξέλεξεν και δε εκ των επιγεγραμμενων Κύριων δοκών ενιας

    "And so chose some from the writings of the Principal Doctrines (Κύριων δοκών)

    I don't see any references to the PDs in the actual papyrus.

    Here's what that papyrus has :

    DCLP/Trismegistos 62437 = LDAB 3610

    column 11

    P.Herc. 1005 col. 8th

    Sketched 1803-1806 by Giuseppe Casanova

    Engraved 1844-1861 by Vincenzo Corazza

    [ ⁇ -ca.?- ⁇ ἐρχόμενον ἀκριβεί-]

    αι πρ 罗 [ς τ 斯 τणν ἀνδρणν] ,

    [πε] ρ πολλणν 재γ [εCSσ] θαι [τἀ-]

    κε 利 [ί] νοις ἀρέֹ [σ] κοντ ', [ἐκ] τ行 ς ἀ [ρ-]

    5 χῆς 玛ποψί [α] ν τιν 재 [λ] α 信μβά-

    ν [ει] ν ⁇ ς περί τινων ἐπι-

    στολ行行ν 利 κα 红 τῆς [Πρքς Πυ-]

    θ行οκλέα περ 间 μ [ε] τεώρων

    ἐπιτομῆς κα 空 τοῦ Περ ἀ-

    10 ρ С [ετ] 行 [ν], κα 布 τ ν ε 利ς Μητρό-

    δωρον ἀναφερομένων

    红ποθηκῶν κα 红 τणν Μαρ-

    τυριῶν κα 红 μ λλον [δ] ⁇ ֹ

    τοῦ Πρքς τքν Πλάτωνοֹς

    15 Γοργίαν δευτέρου, κα 空 τणν

    ες Πολύαινον τοῦ Πρքς

    τοքς 재ήτορας κα κα κ α το ῦ Περ 空

    σελήνης κα 红 τणν ε 罗ς 长ρ く-

    μαρχον · ἐξέλεξεν δ ⁇ κα 空

    20 [ 行 行 行 行 行 行 行 行] γεγραμένω [ν]

    And here's the clunky translation I gleaned from Les Epicuriens in French, trying to compare with the Greek...

    [11] [However, Zeno had good reason to ? consider, in connection with many [writings of our school] that a doubt hung over the opinions which were those of our great men at the origins [of the Garden] thus [he designated for Epicurus] certain letters, the summary on celestial phenomena To Pythocles (Πρքς Πυ]θ行οκλέα περ 间 μ 利[ε]τεώρων ἐπιτομῆς) and On The Virtues (Περ ἀρ 利[ετ]ῶ 行[ν] (Footnote in book: These are the works of Epicurus, although his name is not mentioned and the last title is not otherwise attested.), as well as those writings attributed to Metrodorus which are The Rules of Conduct, the Testimonies and, more certainly, the second book of Against Plato's "Gorgias"; the books Against the Rhetoricians and The Moon attributed to Polyaenus, and those attributed to Hermarchus. Furthermore, he made a selection precisely [missing 1 word] [from the] writings ...

    I'm still working on the second citation in the book. Stay tuned...

    #Polyaenus

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