Posts by Don

I just got The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus through interlibrary loan yesterday and started with the chapter on women in the Garden. The author, within a few pages in the chapter, brought up the fact that some scholars identify a statue of St. Hippolytus in the Vatican as having originally been a statue of Themista of Lampsacus due to the obvious women's double hem and sandals and characteristic throne. The statue, as it is seen today, is pieced together from various fragments, but the throne and base are one piece.

I found one open access article that talks about this:

A Heavily Bearded Philosopher in Women's Underwear. Deconstructing and Reconstructing the Identity of the So-called Hippolytus Statue. In: Louvain Studies 44 (2021), 340-364 (Open Access)

Strictly speaking, the so-called Hippolytus statue should not exist. This free-standing, full-size sculpture of a bearded philosopher, supplied with Christian…

www.academia.edu

Or Google [Themista Hippolytus] and you'll get more resources.

I was completely unaware of this prior to The Invention and Gendering of Epicurus so I am very much looking forward to reading the book.

And along those lines, from my perspective the important distinction isn't mental and physical pleasures; it's pleasures that have their origin within ourselves (recollection, anticipation, freedom from anxiety, etc.) and those that have their origin external to ourselves (taking part in pleasurable activities)

I've been down this road in a previous thread:

Post

RE: Confidence in Katastematic Pleasure

I really started down this road in part with the discovery of Metrodorus being quoted in Clement of Alexandria's Stromata II.131, p. 498 which states (in translation )

[…]

The primary source for my contention was simply the title of Metrodorus's book: On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects. The Greek title reads: Περι του μειζονα ειναι την παρ' ημας αιτιαν προς ευδαιμονιαν της εκ των…

Don

February 10, 2023 at 11:57 PM

Welcome! Salve! Χαίρε!

(Should I assume your screen name is short for TetraPharmakos? ΤετραΦαρμακος?)

Quote from Kalosyni

As for ataraxia, I like to define it as "smooth sailing" to highlight active choices rather than passivity.

There's certainly precedent for that. My understanding is that the word has connotations of calm seas.

That's very kind, Kalosyni . Thank you very much.

And here's a variety of perspectives: Dennett, Kaku, Sapolsky, Pinker, et al...

Here's the compatibilist perspective from Sean Carroll:

Quote from Godfrey

god-bad dichotomy

I don't know if this was a typo or deliberate, but this made smile: there is NO god-bad dichotomy!

Great first post, Quiesco ! Welcome aboard. Look forward to your contributions to our discussions here!

btw, evidently even Epicurus admired Pyrrho's conduct:

Quote from Diogenes Laertius

In debate he was looked down upon by no one, for he could both discourse at length and also sustain a cross-examination, so that even Nausiphanes when a young man was captivated by him: at all events he used to say that we should follow Pyrrho in disposition but himself in doctrine; and he would often remark that Epicurus, greatly admiring Pyrrho's way of life, regularly asked him for information about Pyrrho;

Quote from Cassius

so at least five years - maybe more (?)

Zeno was about 7 years younger than Epicurus.

The significance of the timeline is that Epicurus was establishing a mature school in his own property six years before Zeno even began teaching in the Stoa.

Wikipedia:

Apart from Crates, Zeno studied under the philosophers of the Megarian school, including Stilpo, and the dialecticians Diodorus Cronus, and Philo. He is also said to have studied Platonist philosophy under the direction of Xenocrates, and Polemo.

Summary: I would characterize Epicureanism and Stoicism as siblings, with the former being the older one and with all the stereotypical sibling rivalry that goes along with that metaphor. The siblings are not close.

Zeno of Citium ,the founder of the Stoic school of philosophy, which he taught in Athens from about 300 BC. Zeno began teaching in the colonnade in the Agora of Athens known as the Stoa Poikile (Greek Στοὰ Ποικίλη) in 301 BC. His disciples were initially called "Zenonians," but eventually they came to be known as "Stoics," a name previously applied to poets who congregated in the Stoa Poikile.

Bornc . 334 BCE Citium, Cyprus

Died c. 262 BC (aged 71–72) Athens

***

Epicurus bought his house and garden in Athens in 306 BCE after teaching in Mytilene and Lampsacus for years. His philosophy was already nearing maturity when he came to Athens.

Born 341 BC Samos, Greece

Died 270 BC (aged about 72) Athens, Greece

***

Epicurus's philosophy was not in response to Stoicism. Stoicism wasn't developed enough to be a real rival to his philosophy until later in the history of the Garden. The philosophies became true rivals by the time of Cicero and Philodemus.

Epicurus's texts shouldn't be read in reference to Stoicism, but the later texts need to be read with Stoics in mind.

That's my perspective.

So... Timeline

Epicurus Born 341 BCE Samos, Greece

Zeno Born c . 334 BCE Citium, Cyprus

Epicurus established Garden 306 BCE

Zeno *begins* teaching in the Stoa 300 BCE

Epicurus Died 270 BC (aged about 72) Athens

Zeno Died c. 262 BC (aged 71–72) Athens

Quote from Don

During the episode, I expressed my misgivings/frustrations about the stock phrase "choice and avoidance." Avoiding, avoid, and avoidance have always struck me as milquetoast words. It reminds me of stepping around a mud puddle. "I avoided getting my foot wet."

Epicurus specific words are in the title of the work that laid out his thoughts on these actions: Περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν. (Peri haireseon kai phugon). First, let's get the LSJ definitions on the table:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…y%3Dai(%2Fresis

αἵρεσις (hairesis) does mean "choice" but the connotation for me is much more active than just "choosing": "purpose, course of action or thought" Interestingly enough, it can also refer to the "taking" of a town by an army. It connotes for me an active process, not just a casual "choosing" what one has for dinner. I can live with "choice, choosing" but want to keep that active connotation in mind.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…ntry%3Dfeu%2Fgw

φεύγω is what I really dislike translated as "avoidance." The first LSJ definition is "flee, take flight." If αἵρεσις is the taking of a town, φεύγω is fleeing or retreating. LSJ states that it is the opposite of διώκω which it "pursue or chase." A form of that word shows up in VS46:

We cast off common customs just as we would do to wicked men who have been causing great harm for a long time.

τὰς φαύλας συνηθείας ὥσπερ ἄνδρας πονηροὺς πολὺν χρόνον μέγα βλάψαντες τελείως ἐκδιώκομεν.

ἐκδιώκομεν in this context means "to chase away, banish." So, φεύγω would refer to those being chased or being banished.

So, in keeping with my active sense of αἵρεσις, I see the same for φεύγω. It's not just a casual avoidance or avoiding, it is an active fleeing, taking flight (as in Gandalf's telling the Fellowship "Fly, you fools!" as he fell in Moria), or escaping from something. True, LSJ includes "avoid" but down the list and in the context of all those other active words.

So, I much prefer, if I were to translate Epicurus's book Περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν (and subsequent mentions of the practice) as "Concerning Choice and Flight" or "Choice and Escape" or "Pursuit and Escape" or something more active than "Choice and 'Avoidance'." You'll often see me use "choice or rejection" on the forum, but I would prefer to use one of those other translations.

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Here's a little more on the "choice and avoidance" commentary from above:

Περῐ́ (+ genitive) = "about, concerning, because of"

αιρέσεων = genitive plural form of αἵρεσῐς

φῠγών = genitive plural form of φῠγή

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φυ^γή

I find it interesting that αιρέσεων can refer to the taking of a town in battle, and φῠγών flight in battle. There's a metaphorical war going on when you make "choices and 'avoidances'" which is why I'm encouraging a more active English word.

Look at other uses of φῠγή other than Epicurus in LSJ definition 2. "flight or escape from a thing, avoidance of it":

- Aeschylus, Suppliant Women 395: Chorus: I am determined *to flee to escape* this marriage that offends my soul,...

- Sophocles, Antigone 364: Chorus: From Death alone he shall procure no escape, but from baffling diseases he has devised *flights.*

- Sophocles, Oedipus at Colonus 280: Oedipus: But rather consider that they look on the god-fearing man [280] and on the godless, and that never yet has an impious man found *escape.*

-Euripides, Helen 799: Helen: Here, as a suppliant, I am asking for an *escape* from his bed.

- also cites Philodemus in P.Herc.1251.11 (peri haireseon kai phygon, i.e., his book of the same title as Epicurus's); opp. δίωξις, Epicur.Sent.25. (see above for comment on δίωξις)

Here's P.Herc.1251. Column 11 with line numbers:

[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]ντελο[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]ναιτου[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

πα[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]α καὶ διὰ τοῦτο δ[ῆ-]

λον [ἔτ]ι τῶν κ̣[α]κοπραγι[ῶν ἐ-]

5 [κ]είνω[ν] ἔξω κ[ακ]ίστ[ους] εἶν[αι· ὃ]

[διὰ] τὰ π[ε]ρὶ τῶ[ν] τεττάρω[ν εἰ-]

[ρ]η̣μέν̣α λέγεται, το[ῦ] τὴ[ν περί-]

λη̣ψιν τὴν περὶ τῶν κυρι[ωτ]ά̣-

[τ]ων καὶ τὴν μνήνην π̣[ολ-]

10 λὰ συμβάλλεσθαι πρ̣ὸς τὰς

οὔσας αἱρέσεις καὶ φυγὰς οὐ-

κ̣ ἴσους τιθεμένου, καθάπερ

ἐξεδέξαντό τινες ἀγροί-

κως, τῶι τινας ἀναφέρε̣σ-

15 θαι τῶν αἱρέσεων καὶ φυ̣γῶν

ἐπὶ τὰς περὶ τούτων ἀτα-

ραξίας, ἀλλὰ τῶι κ[α]τ̣ορθοῦσ-

θαι μὲν αὐτὰς τοῖς τέλεσι

τοῖς τῆς φύσεως παραμ̣ε-

20 τ[ρ]ούντων, πολλὰ δὲ [τ]ῶν

[ ̣ ̣]τ̣α̣[ ̣ ̣]α̣τ̣α̣ς̣[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]τ̣[ ̣]εν

PS. The Epicur.Sent.25 refers to PD25...

PD25. If at all critical times you do not connect each of your actions to the natural goal of life, but instead turn too soon to some other kind of goal in thinking whether to **avoid or pursue** something, then your thoughts and your actions will not be in harmony.

εἰ μὴ παρὰ πάντα καιρὸν ἐπανοίσεις ἕκαστον τῶν πραττομένων ἐπὶ τὸ τέλος τῆς φύσεως, ἀλλὰ προκαταστρέψεις εἴτε **φυγὴν εἴτε δίωξιν** ποιούμενος εἰς ἄλλο τι, οὐκ ἔσονταί σοι τοῖς λόγοις αἱ πράξεις ἀκόλουθοι.

Seems to me a better translation there would be "flee or pursue" or "escape or pursue" not milquetoast "avoid" since δίωξιν is the opposite of φυγὴν.

Quote from Cassius

No - Obsidian is an electron app which is cross-platform and therefore runs on windows, linux, and apple. There are even smartphone versions.

Sweet! I'm going to have to investigate. I have several applications of that cross-platform ability in mind. Thanks!!

Tech question: Do you have to be running Linux to edit Obsidian projects?

Nice work.

I'd add mention of Philodemus in Step 2.

PS. Suggested draft:

Texts continue to be discovered among the scrolls that were buried by Vesuvius in Herculaneum including works by Epicurus himself and Philodemus, a 1st century BCE Epicurean philosopher, poet, and student of Zeno of Sidon who was the head of the Garden in Athens at the time.

Revise as needed

Nice work.

I'd add mention of Philodemus in Step 2.

Oh, and the table referred to in the episode: Determinism vs Fatalism

Determinism vs. Fatalism - InfoGraphic (a comparison)

I’ve been seeing the confusion between two different “no free will” positions crop up a lot recently – Determinism and Fatalism. Needless to say these aren’t…

breakingthefreewillillusion.com

For your consideration...

How a Flawed Experiment “Proved” That Free Will Doesn’t Exist

It did no such thing—but the result has become conventional wisdom nevertheless

blogs.scientificamerican.com

During the episode, I expressed my misgivings/frustrations about the stock phrase "choice and avoidance." Avoiding, avoid, and avoidance have always struck me as milquetoast words. It reminds me of stepping around a mud puddle. "I avoided getting my foot wet."

Epicurus specific words are in the title of the work that laid out his thoughts on these actions: Περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν. (Peri haireseon kai phugon). First, let's get the LSJ definitions on the table:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, αἵρεσις

αἵρεσις (hairesis) does mean "choice" but the connotation for me is much more active than just "choosing": "purpose, course of action or thought" Interestingly enough, it can also refer to the "taking" of a town by an army. It connotes for me an active process, not just a casual "choosing" what one has for dinner. I can live with "choice, choosing" but want to keep that active connotation in mind.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φεύγω

φεύγω is what I really dislike translated as "avoidance." The first LSJ definition is "flee, take flight." If αἵρεσις is the taking of a town, φεύγω is fleeing or retreating. LSJ states that it is the opposite of διώκω which it "pursue or chase." A form of that word shows up in VS46:

We cast off common customs just as we would do to wicked men who have been causing great harm for a long time.

τὰς φαύλας συνηθείας ὥσπερ ἄνδρας πονηροὺς πολὺν χρόνον μέγα βλάψαντες τελείως ἐκδιώκομεν.

ἐκδιώκομεν in this context means "to chase away, banish." So, φεύγω would refer to those being chased or being banished.

So, in keeping with my active sense of αἵρεσις, I see the same for φεύγω. It's not just a casual avoidance or avoiding, it is an active fleeing, taking flight (as in Gandalf's telling the Fellowship "Fly, you fools!" as he fell in Moria), or escaping from something. True, LSJ includes "avoid" but down the list and in the context of all those other active words.

So, I much prefer, if I were to translate Epicurus's book Περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν (and subsequent mentions of the practice) as "Concerning Choice and Flight" or "Choice and Escape" or "Pursuit and Escape" or something more active than "Choice and 'Avoidance'." You'll often see me use "choice or rejection" on the forum, but I would prefer to use one of those other translations.