Episode 168 - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 21 - Chapter 10 - The New Freedom 01

During the episode, I expressed my misgivings/frustrations about the stock phrase "choice and avoidance." Avoiding, avoid, and avoidance have always struck me as milquetoast words. It reminds me of stepping around a mud puddle. "I avoided getting my foot wet."

Epicurus specific words are in the title of the work that laid out his thoughts on these actions: Περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν. (Peri haireseon kai phugon). First, let's get the LSJ definitions on the table:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, αἵρεσις

αἵρεσις (hairesis) does mean "choice" but the connotation for me is much more active than just "choosing": "purpose, course of action or thought" Interestingly enough, it can also refer to the "taking" of a town by an army. It connotes for me an active process, not just a casual "choosing" what one has for dinner. I can live with "choice, choosing" but want to keep that active connotation in mind.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φεύγω

φεύγω is what I really dislike translated as "avoidance." The first LSJ definition is "flee, take flight." If αἵρεσις is the taking of a town, φεύγω is fleeing or retreating. LSJ states that it is the opposite of διώκω which it "pursue or chase." A form of that word shows up in VS46:

We cast off common customs just as we would do to wicked men who have been causing great harm for a long time.

τὰς φαύλας συνηθείας ὥσπερ ἄνδρας πονηροὺς πολὺν χρόνον μέγα βλάψαντες τελείως ἐκδιώκομεν.

ἐκδιώκομεν in this context means "to chase away, banish." So, φεύγω would refer to those being chased or being banished.

So, in keeping with my active sense of αἵρεσις, I see the same for φεύγω. It's not just a casual avoidance or avoiding, it is an active fleeing, taking flight (as in Gandalf's telling the Fellowship "Fly, you fools!" as he fell in Moria), or escaping from something. True, LSJ includes "avoid" but down the list and in the context of all those other active words.

So, I much prefer, if I were to translate Epicurus's book Περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν (and subsequent mentions of the practice) as "Concerning Choice and Flight" or "Choice and Escape" or "Pursuit and Escape" or something more active than "Choice and 'Avoidance'." You'll often see me use "choice or rejection" on the forum, but I would prefer to use one of those other translations.

For your consideration...

How a Flawed Experiment “Proved” That Free Will Doesn’t Exist

It did no such thing—but the result has become conventional wisdom nevertheless

blogs.scientificamerican.com

Oh, and the table referred to in the episode: Determinism vs Fatalism

Determinism vs. Fatalism - InfoGraphic (a comparison)

I’ve been seeing the confusion between two different “no free will” positions crop up a lot recently – Determinism and Fatalism. Needless to say these aren’t…

breakingthefreewillillusion.com

Well done discussing emergent properties: I kept wanting to raise my hand and say "what about emergent properties!?" That seems to be the bridge between atomic scale and everyday living scale, and I think that it goes beyond the leaf v stone example and applies more on the level of consciousness. Which might make the smaller, lighter atoms involved in the swerve the key bridge for Epicurus.

This idea also, in my mind, breaks any connection between determinism at the atomic level in that I see emergent properties as potentially unpredictable.

The book Atomic Habits, by James Clear, is a book on habits and not philosophy. But to some degree it addresses determinism by discussing that our habits are determined by our environment. However, a key idea of the book is that we can take control of our habits by modifying our environment.

Great podcast and I look forward to part 2!

I may have read it some time ago, but I'm not sure. Sounds like a good one.

Brilliant article! Lots to chew on in there.

Quote from Don

During the episode, I expressed my misgivings/frustrations about the stock phrase "choice and avoidance." Avoiding, avoid, and avoidance have always struck me as milquetoast words. It reminds me of stepping around a mud puddle. "I avoided getting my foot wet."

Epicurus specific words are in the title of the work that laid out his thoughts on these actions: Περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν. (Peri haireseon kai phugon). First, let's get the LSJ definitions on the table:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…y%3Dai(%2Fresis

αἵρεσις (hairesis) does mean "choice" but the connotation for me is much more active than just "choosing": "purpose, course of action or thought" Interestingly enough, it can also refer to the "taking" of a town by an army. It connotes for me an active process, not just a casual "choosing" what one has for dinner. I can live with "choice, choosing" but want to keep that active connotation in mind.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…ntry%3Dfeu%2Fgw

φεύγω is what I really dislike translated as "avoidance." The first LSJ definition is "flee, take flight." If αἵρεσις is the taking of a town, φεύγω is fleeing or retreating. LSJ states that it is the opposite of διώκω which it "pursue or chase." A form of that word shows up in VS46:

We cast off common customs just as we would do to wicked men who have been causing great harm for a long time.

τὰς φαύλας συνηθείας ὥσπερ ἄνδρας πονηροὺς πολὺν χρόνον μέγα βλάψαντες τελείως ἐκδιώκομεν.

ἐκδιώκομεν in this context means "to chase away, banish." So, φεύγω would refer to those being chased or being banished.

So, in keeping with my active sense of αἵρεσις, I see the same for φεύγω. It's not just a casual avoidance or avoiding, it is an active fleeing, taking flight (as in Gandalf's telling the Fellowship "Fly, you fools!" as he fell in Moria), or escaping from something. True, LSJ includes "avoid" but down the list and in the context of all those other active words.

So, I much prefer, if I were to translate Epicurus's book Περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν (and subsequent mentions of the practice) as "Concerning Choice and Flight" or "Choice and Escape" or "Pursuit and Escape" or something more active than "Choice and 'Avoidance'." You'll often see me use "choice or rejection" on the forum, but I would prefer to use one of those other translations.

Display More

Here's a little more on the "choice and avoidance" commentary from above:

Περῐ́ (+ genitive) = "about, concerning, because of"

αιρέσεων = genitive plural form of αἵρεσῐς

φῠγών = genitive plural form of φῠγή

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φυ^γή

I find it interesting that αιρέσεων can refer to the taking of a town in battle, and φῠγών flight in battle. There's a metaphorical war going on when you make "choices and 'avoidances'" which is why I'm encouraging a more active English word.

Look at other uses of φῠγή other than Epicurus in LSJ definition 2. "flight or escape from a thing, avoidance of it":

- Aeschylus, Suppliant Women 395: Chorus: I am determined *to flee to escape* this marriage that offends my soul,...

- Sophocles, Antigone 364: Chorus: From Death alone he shall procure no escape, but from baffling diseases he has devised *flights.*

- Sophocles, Oedipus at Colonus 280: Oedipus: But rather consider that they look on the god-fearing man [280] and on the godless, and that never yet has an impious man found *escape.*

-Euripides, Helen 799: Helen: Here, as a suppliant, I am asking for an *escape* from his bed.

- also cites Philodemus in P.Herc.1251.11 (peri haireseon kai phygon, i.e., his book of the same title as Epicurus's); opp. δίωξις, Epicur.Sent.25. (see above for comment on δίωξις)

Here's P.Herc.1251. Column 11 with line numbers:

[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]ντελο[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]ναιτου[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩]

πα[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]α καὶ διὰ τοῦτο δ[ῆ-]

λον [ἔτ]ι τῶν κ̣[α]κοπραγι[ῶν ἐ-]

5 [κ]είνω[ν] ἔξω κ[ακ]ίστ[ους] εἶν[αι· ὃ]

[διὰ] τὰ π[ε]ρὶ τῶ[ν] τεττάρω[ν εἰ-]

[ρ]η̣μέν̣α λέγεται, το[ῦ] τὴ[ν περί-]

λη̣ψιν τὴν περὶ τῶν κυρι[ωτ]ά̣-

[τ]ων καὶ τὴν μνήνην π̣[ολ-]

10 λὰ συμβάλλεσθαι πρ̣ὸς τὰς

οὔσας αἱρέσεις καὶ φυγὰς οὐ-

κ̣ ἴσους τιθεμένου, καθάπερ

ἐξεδέξαντό τινες ἀγροί-

κως, τῶι τινας ἀναφέρε̣σ-

15 θαι τῶν αἱρέσεων καὶ φυ̣γῶν

ἐπὶ τὰς περὶ τούτων ἀτα-

ραξίας, ἀλλὰ τῶι κ[α]τ̣ορθοῦσ-

θαι μὲν αὐτὰς τοῖς τέλεσι

τοῖς τῆς φύσεως παραμ̣ε-

20 τ[ρ]ούντων, πολλὰ δὲ [τ]ῶν

[ ̣ ̣]τ̣α̣[ ̣ ̣]α̣τ̣α̣ς̣[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]τ̣[ ̣]εν

PS. The Epicur.Sent.25 refers to PD25...

PD25. If at all critical times you do not connect each of your actions to the natural goal of life, but instead turn too soon to some other kind of goal in thinking whether to **avoid or pursue** something, then your thoughts and your actions will not be in harmony.

εἰ μὴ παρὰ πάντα καιρὸν ἐπανοίσεις ἕκαστον τῶν πραττομένων ἐπὶ τὸ τέλος τῆς φύσεως, ἀλλὰ προκαταστρέψεις εἴτε **φυγὴν εἴτε δίωξιν** ποιούμενος εἰς ἄλλο τι, οὐκ ἔσονταί σοι τοῖς λόγοις αἱ πράξεις ἀκόλουθοι.

Seems to me a better translation there would be "flee or pursue" or "escape or pursue" not milquetoast "avoid" since δίωξιν is the opposite of φυγὴν.