Welcome Dubitator314! too discovered Epicurus through Stoicism, via Cicero. It bothered me that many modern Stoics basically discard large parts of their philosophy (physics and logic, specifically) as irrelevant in today's world. The philosophy of Epicurus seems to me to be a well integrated system. And, as you say, pleasure is a more sensible goal than virtue: virtue being a means to an end. Also atomism, to me, is much more sensible and relevant than providence.

Writing a personal outline was extremely helpful for me to begin to more fully understand and appreciate the philosophy. If you haven't done it, you might check out the Personal Outline section of the forum at: Personal Outlines of Epicurean Philosophy

for examples.

Why thank you! That sounds good, and chapter 12 should be provide an interesting discussion. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to make it.

Cassius the pattern you wrote down for the Wurster article is a great start to a list of fallacious arguments. Elayne, the idea of using numbers is hilarious!

An additional tactic is to create additional content explaining the point of view that we're pursuing here. It's already being discussed in other threads (podcast, books...) Also there's some excellent content on the forum already: there must be a way to get some of it into the mainstream or on to Academia or Jstor or similar sites or journals. Maybe at some point it will reach a critical mass. (Although I say this as someone who's not a writer or a philosopher and not contributing much in the way of content, so I'm kind of blowing hot air. Apologies for that )

I found this article disturbing enough that I followed the link to the author's web page:

https://www.facetofaceintercultural.com.au/

Seems interesting in light of some of the assumptions made in the article. And more than a little dismaying in the context of an"intercultural" exchange.

A couple of years ago my doctor suggested that I try a ketogenic diet along with intermittent fasting. I enjoyed both, but a cholesterol test showed that my bad cholesterol levels had skyrocketed. Apparently some percentage of people have this reaction to keto; I've stopped and would recommend to anybody doing keto that they monitor their cholesterol levels.

I'm thinking of giving intermittent fasting another try. For me it was as simple as having a late breakfast and slightly early dinner. I'm not doing it for weight loss but for energy.

I've never done any multi-day fasting but have read about the benefits. The hedonic calculus doesn't add up for me on that, though.

Here's an article from 2018 which seems pretty comprehensive:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/buried…ique-180969358/

According to this they've only been successful with small fragments so there's not much text to publish. And in addition to the technological issues, getting access to the scrolls is a major challenge.

Also the Getty is presenting a lecture in October on the subject; maybe the speakers mentioned are worth researching:

https://www.getty.edu/visit/cal/events/ev_2831.html

When people talk about scrolls and fragments, this is what they're referring to....

Apologies for the poor quality cellphone pictures, but I was amazed by these. How people have been able to rescue these texts just boggles the mind. There is also a video describing current efforts with 3D scanning and AI; apparently the technology is still being developed so results are down the road a ways.

Bravo, Josh! You've delineated a bridge of sanity from Lucian's time to the present day.

The uncertainty referred to isn't philosophical dogma, but lack of personal agency. Pursuing autarchy increases our personal agency, thus reducing uncertainty to a degree about events which may occur in our future.

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PD16, Peter Saint-Andre translation
Chance steals only a bit into the life of a wise person: for throughout the complete span of his life the greatest and most important matters have been, are, and will be directed by the power of reason.

Regarding dogma, you're absolutely correct. Here's one example:

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PD24, Peter Saint-Andre translation

If you reject a perception outright and do not distinguish between your opinion about what will happen after, what came before, your feelings, and all the layers of imagination involved in your thoughts, then you will throw your other perceptions into confusion because of your trifling opinions; as a result, you will reject the very criterion of truth. And if when forming concepts from your opinions you treat as confirmed everything that will happen and what you do not witness thereafter, then you will not avoid what is false, so that you will remove all argument and all judgment about what is and is not correct.

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I thought to add Newton's equal force law to fight the cycle of depression. So doing more especially activities that you enjoy...

Yesterday I was listening to a podcast of an interview with the author of the book Stress Proof:

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/podca…body-and-brain/

The author is a neuro-opthamologist (I never knew there was such a specialty!) so her approach is very biologically based. godek , there was some discussion of depression as it relates to stress, which is why I'm posting. But of interest to me was the contention that uncertainty is the greatest contributor to stress and some discussion of removing uncertainty, which sounded a lot like autarchy. The author professed her enthusiasm for Stoicism, but the material presented seemed more Epicurean to me! Anyway it's worth a listen; I plan to read the book sometime soon.

For me, Elayne's comparison of pleasure/pain to atoms/void is very helpful in clarifying the discussion of pleasure and pain.

Pleasure is the absence of pain, likewise pain is the absence of pleasure.

Regarding the cup:

- Length of life wouldn't affect the size of the cup, there are just more frames in the movie of the cup.

- Everyone gets the same size of cup. If the size of the cup varies between people, it will also vary from moment to moment for a given person. There is no absolute from which to look down and measure the cup.

- IMO the simplest model is the most useful.

Great article Elayne and a really insightful discussion!

Daily Life Decisions Applying An Epicurean Model

This is the name of the thread; I don't know how to link to it

Edit by Cassius: I added it for you! Daily Life Decisions Applying An Epicurean Model

Wouldn't it just be net pleasure minus net pain? I use natural and necessary or unnecessary as a first step to evaluate a given desire, then I think about whether the various costs involved (pain) will add up to more or less than the resultant pleasure.

Pains to weigh include for example money (working overtime to earn extra money, spending savings, etc); prudent use of my time; prudent use of my energy; the effects on people and things that are important to me, and how that would affect my net pleasure.

The quote that I keep in mind is:

Ask this question of every desire: what will happen to me if the object of desire is achieved, and what if not? VS71

There was a recent thread that had a really good example. I'll try to find it....

One thing that I've noticed when I listen to podcasts is that having multiple people speaking is, to my ear, more engaging than just listening to one person for the entire podcast. This is true for podcasts of 30 minutes or more, which may be more than what you're thinking of Joshua. But an interviewer/interviewee format may be an effective way to present the material, especially on subjects where there is a divergence of opinion. Also, sometimes it works well to have two regular hosts, who could have differently nuanced positions. Of course these ideas add another layer of complexity to the task of getting things off the ground, so they may over the top at this point....

A brief review of the exhibit is at:

http://lacmaonfire.blogspot.com/2019/07/food-s…-and-death.html

It's a brief but interesting review, but I'm noting it primarily due to the last photo, shown just after a photo of the piglet. The object is described as an "iPhone-size sundial in the shape of a prosciutto ham. A missing tail served as the gnomon. The gallery label says: "Its unique shape may be a playful link to Epicurean philosophy, with the pig as symbol of tranquility and freedom from fear of death: piglet today, pork tomorrow—carpe diem."

You're welcome! If you can't make it to the exhibit, the article has a link to the catalogs if they're of any interest. Kind of expensive, but cheaper than a plane ticket.

An article on a forthcoming exhibit on Herculaneum. Mostly art and architecture, but some treatment of the scrolls. Also a familiar piglet

http://blogs.getty.edu/iris/exhibitio…mplete-library/

No issues with an Android phone; it works well!

I have "Unread Posts" bookmarked. I also use the red dots at the upper left and right sides of the page, and if I'm looking for something recent that I've already read I look under "Threads of the Last 24 Hours".

From the article: "You will have a growing appreciation for life’s basic experiences. You will learn to measure yourself through a new, healthier means: the pleasures of simple friendship, creating something, helping a person in need, reading a good book, laughing with someone you care about."

On the positive side, embracing being average is embracing your humanity. Could embracing your humanity possibly be considered a natural pleasure in that it is working with what is natural? This subject sounds like Montaigne, from what very little I know of him.

Reminds me of a happy-go-lucky guy I once worked with who always said he was sleeping his way to the middle. But that's not on point!