Posts by Godfrey

Oops I crossed posts with your last 2. Is the Epicurean Atomism essay online or just in the CCtoE book?

Jumping from the 20 tenets thread....

Cassius, I was curious about Victor Stenger from reading the SofE post that I indirectly linked to in the tenets thread. From browsing on Amazon, his book God and the Atom looks to be exactly what I'm looking for: a discussion of particle theory from an Epicurean perspective. I think I'll start with that book and see where it leads me.

Here's a link to a previous post on the subject:

Fields, Particles, and the Reality We Live In

First, fwiw I find this discussion quite valuable in challenging and clarifying my understanding.

Elli as one who knows nothing about Greek, I've been curious about that word autarchy so thanks for that clarification.

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Objection to SOE6: There is a component to this that was essential to Epicurus and is controversial, and that is the issue about whether the elemental particles are themselves indivisible. Epicurus appears to have held that indivisibility is essential for a number of reasons, most apparently leading to to the need to point to something that is ultimately unchanging in order for the regularity we see in the universe to be grounded in nature and not in supernatural gods. I agree with him that the issue of indivisibility is critical and needs to be explicitly stated.

This is best split off into another thread: my sketchy understanding of atomic/subatomic particles ends at around 1978. What current sources of information are there on the subject that are comprehensible to a layman? I think some study of this would be useful in order to examine how current thinking aligns with Epicurus' conception of atoms. Much of the current understanding seems to be theoretical, as was Epicurus'. I don't want to become a nuclear physicist but I think it's a fertile topic for study and discussion. Particles, waves, energy, theoretical process... enough science to contribute to the philosophy. (I think we've touched on this elsewhere but I haven't tracked it down yet.)

Happy holidays to all! Cassius much gratitude to you for providing us with a place to study, interact and learn. Here's to a great 2020!

I'm out of commission until the new year. Spending time with in-laws through Christmas (trying not to go mental), taking a family road trip after that.

Happy Twentieth, all!

Maybe a more accurate description is "sloppily", "lazily" or"unknowingly" Epicurean.

From The Daily Extra on The Argyle Sweater daily calendar (a small daily pleasure):

Quote of the Day

"For me, human rights simply endorse a view of life and a set of moral values that are perfectly clear to an eight-year-old child. A child knows what is fair and isn't fair, and justice derives from that knowledge."

- Tom Stoppard

Stoppard is a playwright and screenwriter; I've probably seen some of his movies but am otherwise unaware of his views. This particular quote strikes me as pretty Epicurean however.

Is there any information showing that the Menoeceus letter could have been written significantly earlier or later than the other two, reflecting a development in Epicurus' writing style?

Just to add a totally non scholarly two cents worth: when I encounter an ism, I tend to ask "what are the fixed ideas that this contains". When I think of a philosophy, or when I'm operating from inside of an ism, I tend to think more in terms of a living and dynamic set of ideas with which to engage.

Joshua are your smartphone pics handheld? Do you use any tripod or lens attachments? They look really crisp in addition to their other virtues.

Joshua your photos convey to me a sense of pleasure in your life on the road. In addition to being great photos! They make me want to take a road trip.

Charles, I watched Knives Out last night and found it to be a fun and lighthearted tale of wealth and murder. Maybe a little silly but I thoroughly enjoyed it; I know very little about Rian Johnson however. An added element of personal enjoyment was that I've got a neighbor who talks like Don Johnson's character and so I was chuckling to myself every time he showed up on screen. After the movie my wife confirmed that impression and we got another good laugh!

Happy Twentieth, all!

Rational Decisionmaking sounds rather Stoic; maybe something along the lines of "optimizing pleasure" would be a better replacement for hedonic calculus. Or "using pleasure for making decisions".

If it's not too trendy, Present Moment Physical Comfort Enhancement could become "mindfulness of pleasure".

Wow! That sounds great Elayne! My interior design is pretty much the opposite: walls and rafters painted white, and a couple of new skylights to add lots of light. Over time I anticipate it getting populated with a variety of as yet undetermined creations. I've got a gigantic drafting table that's been passed down for a couple of generations which will feature prominently as well.

Outside are a red door and a blue door, along with a west facing patio wall painted "golden buff" which catches the sunset quite nicely. All rather modern though.

Ping pong wise, I plan to keep half of the table vertical while it's in the garage so it will be a practice table. For games it can roll out onto the driveway/patio with both sides down, if that makes any sense. Although I normally play just for fun, I've got a friend who destroys me when we play; hopefully the practice time will help in addition to providing some fun breaks from other activities.

A good cup of loose leaf tea in the morning, with a square of delicious dark chocolate.

Sitting outside in the morning, either with said tea and chocolate or with some water, reading and noticing any birds, butterflies, squirrels, clouds, sun, breeze... or just the blue of the sky and the colors of the landscape.

Preparing and eating a big, tasty, healthy breakfast.

Going to the neighborhood YMCA to exercise: cardio some days, strength training others, followed by a stretch. Some days a walk along the beach replaces cardio in the Y; this is a vast improvement, but I'm currently benefiting from the increased intensity that I'm getting indoors.

Evenings, either stream a good show or movie with my wife or read a book on my own.

Sundays, a few hours of date time with my wife and perhaps some friends.

Each night before bed I go outside to look at the stars. As I live in the city this is a mixed bag: I often think of the line from a movie (Dan Aykroyd? Bill Murray?) "ah, look at the stars! There must be dozens of them!" A trip to the desert or mountains is overdue!

I keep thinking that I need to schedule more pleasures into my day and week, but after making this list I see I've got a good start. One pleasure that is forthcoming (and tantalizingly close) is the completion of a garage studio in which to enjoy a variety of creative endeavors and ping pong.

Concerning "thrillseeking", I just came across this quote from Jill Heinerth, a cave diver: "I'm actually risk averse... I think that it's important to be scared". This just illustrates to me an understanding of risk and a commitment to do the work necessary to minimize potential pain (or death) in order to achieve a potential pleasure.

The movie Free Solo is an illustration of this idea. It follows a world class rock climber as he prepares for and executes a climb of El Capitan without safety equipment. Watching the movie was enough of a "thrill" for me! But it effectively illustrates the subjectivity that goes into the hedonic calculus.

Cassius I was wondering the same thing about DeWitt's list; it seems like deriving "virtues" from the texts would involve interpretation of some sort. (Re the Skype calls, I keep hoping to make it, but an ongoing project is dragging on and Sunday mornings are my only time to catch up on sleep here on the west coast Hopefully I'll make it this week!)

Garden Dweller, life is the greatest good. That might be the closest thing to an absolute for any living thing and definitely enters into any decision. But two examples which I think illustrate the subjectivity of how to preserve life are:

- skydiving or other thrill seeking would be considered by some to be foolishly dangerous, by others to be as important as living

- for some people, living with a serious and extremely painful illness can be looked upon as another adventure or challenge and something to be endured, for others it's a reason to end life

Therefore it could be said that even the decision to live or die can be subordinate to the individual's weighing of pleasure and pain, moderated by a very large portion of prudence.

That's an excellent and incisive question Cassius.

Following my current thinking to its conclusion, the only virtue I would recognize is prudence. DeWitt lists several virtues in EAHP. The dictionary definition of virtue is "high moral standard". The definition of morality is principles of right and wrong and/or good and bad behavior. As I understand it, in a universe of atoms and void there is no objective morality. Prudence then becomes the mother of all morality as it is necessary for making good choices.

Getting from the mother to a list of children involves, it seems, subjecting various potential candidates to the Canon as well as to hedonic calculus. In order for something to pass the hedonic calculus as being worthy of being labeled a virtue, it would need to have a pleasurable result in all cases. Self preservation didn't survive this process, in my mind.

As for labeling other things as virtues, I haven't yet gone through this process as I'm just figuring it out. Which is a reason why Garden Dweller's initial question is an excellent question!

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By self preservation, one might include avoiding high risk activities, seeking preventative healthcare, practing good diet and exercise, and learning ways to extend one's health and lifespan ?

Self preservation taken to its extreme might look something like Oblomovitis! On a more sensible level it would lead to "freedom from bodily pain and mental disturbance". Also, there is the consideration of intensity of pleasure v the length of pleasure: a longer life isn't necessarily better than a shorter but more pleasurable life.

To me, there's a point where pursuing good health, fitness, and keeping up with the latest health info goes from good sense to obsession, and I confess I tend to cross that line all too frequently. EP keeps reminding me to focus on enjoyment, while being aware of the hedonic calculus. My interpretation of the hedonic calculus contains a factor of self preservation, but mainly because the nature of the calculus is maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain.

So I would say self preservation isn't an Epicurean virtue, but it is quite sensible. And what it entails is entirely subjective.