Posts by Eoghan Gardiner

Ultimately this philosophy doesn't prescribe anything we do, yet we must act in order to live pleasurably we are radically free from destiny to see happiness in pleasure. Epicureanism is unfortunately but less so lately marked by an idea of being ascetic and perhaps not taking risks I think Epicurus and his philosophy and Dr Emily's new book challenge that view.

Then the tension arrives, I am generally happy right now my friends but I know I could take a big risk which could bring massive pleasure. Let's say it was entering a relationship well I am guessing we have all known the absolute joy of intimacy, sex but the heart break of the breakup is very painful.

We certainly shouldn't take risks that are likely going to be a failure (put all life savings on red) but also we can't just try live like cowards who allow life happen to them instead of act using our faculties, what do you think?

Quote from Joshua

One of my prouder moments in secondary school was the paper we were asked to write on Natural Family Planning--or in very public vernacular, Vatican Roulette.

Natural family planning is so ridiculous they absolutely hoops they have to jump through to not make it the same as just using contraception is absolutely gas.

Catholicism falls apart when you come to study the bible academically, you can make all the arguments for the existence of God you want but even if they are logically in no way does it point toward the Bible, Quran or anything else.

I used to be friends with Dominicans and they basically just told me "don't worry about scholarship of the bible it's rubbish" for an order devoted to philosophy that didn't seem like a great answer.

Catholic guilt prevades the lives of many catholics and ex catholics, when I enjoy food I feel guilty at times, when I laugh with friends I feel guilty...it's very deep for being brought up in this way. It makes it so every pleasure is marked with guilt. Speaking to hundreds of other ex catholics over the years it seems to be a common thing.

For example I am playing video games, I feel guilty I feel as if I am doing wrong. Other Christians seem to get it around sexually matters but Catholics and Orthodox seem to get it around every pleasure every joy.

My problem is I really can't escape Catholic guilt. I wish I could.

Quote from Little Rocker

Quote from Pacatus

I was raised in a milieu of Christian/Stoical/Kantian “virtue moralism” that I liken to a Pavlovian programming that leaves an array of reactive triggers in your subconscious – that can grab you decades later (at least for me).

Yeah, in my experience it never goes away....it just gets muffled.

Yep same for me, at times it becomes overwhelming.

Quote from Little Rocker

Quote from Pacatus

I was raised in a milieu of Christian/Stoical/Kantian “virtue moralism” that I liken to a Pavlovian programming that leaves an array of reactive triggers in your subconscious – that can grab you decades later (at least for me).

Yeah, in my experience it never goes away....it just gets muffled.

Yep same for me, at times it becomes overwhelming.

Yeah I think so, if it doesn't I think Epicurus would say you aren't practicing philosophy.

Quote from Pacatus

Eoghan Gardiner:

What about "existential angst" and Sartre's "hell is other people"? (I'm sure you are far better read than I am here, and I don't intend these as argumentative questions.)

Sartre mean't something else by that phrase, he was a big fan of being with his friends (especially his long term partner Simone who is also a philosopher) they sat around Cafes, pubs etc.. talking philosophy.

I don't 100% understand what he means by this phrase but it has something to do with another persons perception of you being like hell as that perception is ontologically within in them.

The idea of "the other" aka another person was a big thing for him, tbh I doubt I am more well read I am just reading through Sartre recently this year.

I don't think Epicureans and existentialists are at odds really, I think the ultimate reality of choosing your own essence is ultimately gonna end up the same as what is most pleasurable (Existentialists are heavily influenced by phenomenologists as well which tries not to abstract so much as far as I know..)

You exist but what you are isn't predefined, unlike Plato and other religions. We could say we exist but what is most pleasurable for me isn't pre decided for the most part (even existentialists would say that we are still constrained by our natural needs etc..) instead I discover what's most pleasurable for myself and decide myself.

Edit: In hindsight I don't think an existentialist would even ask the question I posited.

It's hard to phrase the question without it seeming to appeal to some abstraction but I hope it makes sense.

This is great thank you.

I have been heavily involved in catholic circles, it's an on going struggle for me. Neo Platonism is the singular most impactful philosophy on all the big theistic religions whether they want to admit it or not. Islam, Christians and Judaism.

One of the most insightful clues into the nature of these religions is the quote "Plato did more for Christianity than Jesus or Paul did"

The enneads are almost unreadable and when you do read them you realize you are reading a religious manuscript, Plotinus believed he could curse people with literal magic.

He believed that we are material beings were some of the lowest creatures in the emanation of the universe and the Good was a completely apophatic being (you can't even call it a being to be honest but for the sake of clarity) Plontius is famous for when asked if they could make his sculpture "I am already entombed in this body, why must I have a stone image too"

What's funny is, all these religions influenced by Plotinus are secretly psychological hedonists, the "mystical experiences" (which I must admit I have experienced but I don't believe they are non physical but rather a physical phenomena). Are ultimately pleasurable, it's a preferrable state of being that lasts a few seconds. The problem is, every major religion can produce these and even just not religious activities have been shown to produce them. We musn't add religious dogma to strange phenomena that happen to us, we must look at it succulently.

Anyway that's probably my yearly ramble, hope all are doing well!

Thanks for this, reading through her book it's great. I especially loved how she pointed out how ancient Stoics would think neo stoics are quite silly for having the belief about Virtue seeing as they don't hold the same view of the universe (I might have heard her say that in the interview you guys did with her, I can't remember)

41. At one and the same time we must philosophize, laugh, and manage our household and other business, while never ceasing to proclaim the words of true philosophy.

The fact of modern life is that we need to work in order to support ourselves and not many people enjoy their jobs (I for one don't but try to have a good time with my colleagues when at work)

It seems to me the above Vatican saying is the attitude we must have within in order to live a pleasant life at work. As any irish mother of the past few centuries would tell us managing a household is not easy especially when children are young and so i think we can make a comparison between managing the house hold which epicurus speaks about to working a regular job.

For most people, if giving the choice they wouldn't go to work as much as they do, especially considering that working your whole life is not a guarantee of security and definitely not a guarantee of a pleasurable life.

How many times have we heard of men and women in their 70s beginning to enjoy retirement and then their natural end has come?

We can't escape work, so we must enjoy work. Epicurus tells us how "philosophise, laugh and proclaim the words of philosophy".

Philosophise: We can always think or have handy near us some sayings of Epicurus, we can read the succulent words and meditate on them and internalise them more and more finally making them our own words. We can keep in mind that our end is pleasure and not worry about what the goodness is but instead we choose goodness which is none other than pleasure.

Laugh: The freedom to laugh freely, jts a free pleasure and easily attained. I take Epicurus advice and think back to good times with friends, funny jokes I've heard or just laugh with joy that we are free from the bonds of idealism and abstract notions of what being good is. I can laugh with joy at the fact of being alive.

Proclaim the true words of philosophy: to never cease proclaiming to myself and if the chance arrives to others Epicurus doctrine. To talk about it at any time as it is easy to talk about we don't need to go through countless syllogism but instead we can make talking philosophy what it is supposed to be namely fun.

I'm trying to think of ways and attitudes to apply epicurus sayings to life.

This topic is something I struggle with till this day... I was raised catholic and have gone back forth from catholicism to epicurean philosophy many times...I was even a catholic monk for a short time.

There is a reason PD1 is so important. Anyway I don't have much to add but I know the feeling of a religion feeling inescapable...I believe Cassius may have similar experience if I recall from previous conversation years ago now..

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

Quote from Don

"If it feels good, do it" is Cyrenaic.

I have to wonder if even the Cyrenaics were so short-sighted. Wish we had more texts from them too.

I have to wonder too. I've lived that lifestyle it just eventually leads to a lot of pain.

Don Yeah thanks for the qualification!

When someone says certain pleasures are better than others I have to ask WHY? The only answer is that this certain pleasure feels better to that individual.

My point is there is no objective better or worse pleasure it's all subjective to the individual. This idea of separating pleasures into higher or low, or separating pleasure from happiness is just wrong. Pleasure is the guide to happiness and happiness is feeling pleasurable.

People like to say wouldn't you prefer to read a good book rather than have an orgasm or eating a good chocolate bar as if there is some objective standard. Quite frankly I answer it depends on what I'm in the mood for. Maybe I'm being too simplistic I just don't think epicurus would have objective lists of which pleasures are better.

Enjoyment vs pleasure...how can I know if I enjoy something if it doesn't feel pleasurable. Can I use a syllogism to figure out if I enjoy something or can I just feel it?

one thing I didn't appreciate when I was younger (around 2017) was that the physics of Epicureanism is the foundation of the ethics. Its not something that we can let behind but it should be something that we mention with out ethics.

Many modern "philosophies of life" deny the physics of their founders, which means they have no foundation for their ethics. The ancients realised that we must draw our ethics from what we think of the world..I think this is key and something I'm only appreciating lately.