Posts by Cassius

Ok so you're focusing on the title rather than the content. The article itself seems clear enough to me, but I haven't had a lot of time to digest it and it's possible I'll reread and change my opinion letter.

On first reading of the article and your comment i'd say that the both of you are coming from the same perspective. There's nothing to be concerned about after death (incorrectly thought of a "being dead") but there's a lot to be concerned about in terms of how and when we die.

And I read the takeaways of her article to be that is is ridiculous to conclude that Epicurus taught the same attitude toward "being dead" as he did toward how long we live and the circumstances under which we stop living. But that's exactly what many seem to be doing, and it turns the philosophy on its head to take that position.

Quote from TauPhi

I find it quite misleading because to my understanding Epicurus tried to remove (1) the fear of being dead. He never tried to remove fear of dying (2), (3), (4) because process of dying and everything connected with it belongs to the living and is painful and human beings can't switch off pain at their will.

I read that statement (and everything you wrote after it) as exactly the point of her article, Tau Phi. And she is criticizing as misleading the position taken by Warren and others for doing what you too are criticizing.

So you are agreeing with her? Or are you saying that her article is what is misleading?

Pacatus thank you again! Joshua was sick on Sunday and we missed our weekly recording session. I've been casting around for a topic to record something short so we wouldn't miss the week. This article is perfect for me to record a few excerpts and comments for this week's episode. So this was a very timely contribution!

OH NO! A great point but far too brief! I wish she had gone into this further but she stopped before elaborating.

I'd say she's definitely right in the point below, and this is one of the most important take-aways of the article that goes far beyond the issue of death. The Epicurean goal is not perfectionism of absolute elimination of all pain before you can consider yourself to be truly happy. This section too is very understated and diplomatic, but very very implicitly critical of "wikipedia Epicureanism:'

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There remains one key objection: it seems that my interpretation threatens the possibility of ataraxia. Fear, like grief, is a negative emotion, so an argument that claims we are all motivated to act in light of an ineliminable (though generally controllable) fear might appear to undercut the Epicurean quest for an anxiety-free life. If my thesis requires that Epicurus jettison a fundamental psychological principle that guides his eudaemonist ethics, interpretive consistency is very much against me. One live option is to retreat to the idea that Epicureanism is a perfectiionist ethics, according to which even the best of us can only approximate ataraxia, if only because there are some psychological and bodily limitations imposed on natural creatures. Perfectionism is not a terribly uncommon feature of ancient ethical theories, and those who are perfect are of- ten judged divine rather than human.29 Another alternative is to reconceive ataraxia in light of evidence that even sages experience characteristically negative emotions. Some texts, for instance, indicate that the sage grieves the deaths of her friends and shares their suffering. On this front, Epicureans seek to differentiate themselves from the Stoics, whose resistance to grief seemed positively inhumane (VS 66, DL X, 120; Plutarch, A Pleasant Life, 1101ab: Us. 120). If the sage achieves and maintains ataraxia, yet grieves at the same time, then ataraxia might withstand some other natural, negative human emotions.

A more general takeaway here is how this article serves as a warning to the deep issues between Epicurean commentators. A lot of this article is a very diplomatic attack on the positions of people like James Warren. I haven't devoted a lot of time over the years to criticizing Warren directly, but it seems to me that his positions are often indicative of a sort of "British Epicureanism" that has a large of element of Stoicism baked in.

That's not to slam at everything he writes or on all British writers on Epicurus. I'd say that David Sedley and/or Martin Ferguson Smith are the greatest living interpreters of Epicurus. But after them, and already exceeding them in some ways, I'd say is Emily Austin. She seems to me to be free of almost all this British Stoic/Buddhist influence which has many Epicureans at the point where they don't seem able to articulate a strong position why they would have any care as to whether this day is their last.

But there are deep problems with the British Epicureanism that is often accepted as the orthodox way to interpret Epicurus. This article is a great example of pushing back against that.

I have to stand up and cheer at this paragraph and especially the first sentence. Many modern proponents of Epicurus (not just Warren) have boxed themselves into exactly the position that Austin describes as insufficient.

This first sentence is such an understatement! As I read further into the article it's beginning to occur to me that she's having to "waste time." Some of what Warren et al have suggested are positions that I would say no one but a Stoic or Buddhist would have found entertainable in the first place. But that's where much of modern Epicurean commentary has left us, having to go through and dismiss corruptions like she is attacking here in a very understated way.

This is an excellent article.

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Occupying an argumentative space in which one lacks reason to avoid
easily and ethically avoidable deaths should, I think, be a last resort. An
Epicurean, then, should first search out something other than pain to ex-
plain her decision to seek her own safety and ensure the safety of others.
For instance, she might avoid the tyrant because death at the hands of the
tyrant is unpredictable and uncertain. She might claim that mental anxiety
arising from uncertainty justifies her escape rather than the prospect of
physical pain. The standard interpretation clearly prohibits this response,
however, since anxiety about uncertain death is a species of the fear of
death, and the standard interpretation insists that all fears of death are
irrational and eliminable. Fear about when one’ s death will occur is out-
right a fear of death.

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That's a great catch Pacatus thank you! I do not recall that we have discussed this or in my case that I was aware of it at all.

I see the download watermark says 2013 so I presume it's at last that old but I can't really confirm the date of publication from the PDF.

At first glance and before reading the whole thing the parts I have skimmed strike me as very good. Her interpretations of Epicurus are reasonable here as they are in her book - she seems to be saying that Epicurus does not demand total absence of pain and that he realizes that some fear of death is inevitable and even useful.

If that's her position then this should prove to be a very useful addition to arguments that Epicurus should not be interpreted as setting up a neo-mystical state of "total elimination of all pain" as his goal.

Rather, as to death and everything else, he's focused on a practical view of happiness seen as a practical balance of pleasure over pain in which we are happy even as we inevitably, and sometimes voluntarily, experience some pain.

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I have argued that Epicurus does not believe all forms of the fear of death
are irrational and eliminable. At least one fear – the fear of violent death
caused by others – is brute and must be managed politically. If I am right,
Epicurus’ beliefs would seem much more reasonable to many people who
recognize that we have a vested interest in controlling the fear of death,
but who are skeptical about our ability to eliminate it. Epicurus would no
longer believe that a person can study a set of arguments, believe them,
chant them regularly to herself or with friends, and thereby rid herself of
the many varieties of the fear of death. Others, however, might think my
thesis renders Epicurus’ beliefs about the fear of death much less exciting.
If one is primarily interested in Epicurus’ views on death because his extre-
mism makes him a useful foil, then he might no longer be the biggest
target. Likewise, if one looks to Epicurus to eliminate all varieties of one’ s
own fear of death, then one might need to seek extra assistance.

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I remember reading this Ayn Rand essay on the topic many years ago. I'm sure today I would side with Nietszsche's assessment with which Rand disagrees, but these paragraphs probably help make what is being debated more clear:

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The issue in this case is the alleged dichotomy of reason versus emotion. This dichotomy has been presented in many variants in the history of philosophy, but its most colorfully eloquent statement was given by Friedrich Nietzsche.

In The Birth of Tragedy from the Spirit of Music, Nietzsche claims that he observed two opposite elements in Greek tragedies, which he saw as metaphysical principles inherent in the nature of reality. He named them after two Greek gods: Apollo, the god of light, and Dionysus, the god of wine.

Apollo, in Nietzsche's metaphysics, is the symbol of beauty, order, wisdom, efficacy—though Nietzsche equivocates about this last—that is, the symbol of reason. Dionysus is the symbol of drunkenness or, rather, Nietzsche cites drunkenness as his identification of what Dionysus stands for: wild, primeval feelings, orgiastic joy, the dark, the savage, the unintelligible element in man; that is, the symbol of emotion.

Apollo, according to Nietzsche, is a necessary element, but an unreliable and thus inferior guide to existence that gives man a superficial view of reality: the illusion of an orderly universe. Dionysus is the free, unfettered spirit that offers man—by means of a mysterious intuition induced by wine and drugs—a more profound vision of a different kind of reality, and is thus the superior.

And, indicating that Nietzsche knew clearly what he was talking about, even though he chose to express it in a safely, drunkenly Dionysian manner, Apollo represents the principle of individuality, while Dionysus leads man, quote, "into complete self-forgetfulness," unquote, and into merging with the "oneness” of nature. Those who, at a superficial reading, take Nietzsche to be an advocate of individualism, please note.

This much is true: reason is the faculty of an individual, to be exercised individually; and it is only dark, irrational emotions, obliterating his mind, that can enable a man to melt, merge and dissolve into a mob or a tribe. We may accept Nietzsche's symbols, but not his estimate of their respective values, nor the metaphysical necessity of a reason/emotion dichotomy.

It is not true that reason and emotion are irreconcilable antagonists or that emotions are a wild, unknowable, ineffable element in men. But this is what emotions become for those who do not care to know what they feel, and who attempt to subordinate reason to their emotions. For every variant of such attempts—as well as for their consequences—the image of Dionysus is an
appropriate symbol.

Symbolic figures are a valuable adjunct to philosophy. They help men to integrate and bear in mind the essential meaning of complex issues. Apollo and Dionysus represent the fundamental conflict of our age. And for those who may regard them as floating abstractions, reality has offered two perfect, fiction-like dramatizations of these abstract symbols—at Cape Kennedy and at Woodstock.

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I haven't re-read the rest of that essay but I do think it's true that the subject of whether there is a conflict between Apollo vs Dionysus and how to frame it is of relevance to how we explain Epicurus.

Thanks to Eikadistes for his latest graphic:

This calls to my mind that at least as for me personally I have never come to terms with all the ink that has been spilled in philosophy over the apparent conflict between Apollo and Dionysus or what the controversy is even about apart from very basic allusions about drunkenness.

Apollonian and Dionysian - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nietzsche’s Birth of Tragedy: Apollo and Dionysus

It’s more complicated than just order and chaos. . .

gregorybsadler.substack.com

I could probably dig into those two articles and come up with something that was satisfactory, but given that there is so much attention paid to this I think it might be worthwhile to discuss what would have been Epicurus' attitude about this controversy. I suspect that he would end up finding something good in both and something also to revise.

If anyone here has reviewed this and has a firm viewpoint on how ancient Epicurean would have viewed this, please post.

Definitely part of the Physics forum and I would probably put it under the Infinite / eternal universe section. I will move it to a better place now. Move it further if you see a better place later.

Also: I like that the title includes the word "Known" in it.

Quote from Kalosyni

Epicurus = "pleasure" is the telos (end) of the best life and the word "pleasure" leads most people to hear that Epicurus gave more importance to bodily sensation.

In my view you're no doubt right that '"most people hear Epicurus to be saying that he gave more importance to bodily sensation" and in my view also those people are making very incorrect about what Epicurus was saying. There are ample reliable texts indicating how wrong they are.

Quote from Kalosyni

Aristotle = "living well and doing well" is the telos (end) of the best life and humans find their highest fulfillment in exercising reason, especially through contemplation.

And yes that is a key point about Aristotle, the response to which has many aspects but one of the primary of which is that there is nothing divine about human reason, and by focusing on it to the exclusion of the rest of the human, and of nature itself, is to divorce the mind from the body in a way that is totally unjustified, improper, and disastrous. One writer who makes that point very well is Cosma Raimondi. This was directed to the Stoics but much of it applies to Aristotle too:

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If we were indeed composed solely of a mind, I should be inclined to call Regulus “happy” and entertain the Stoic view that we should find happiness in virtue alone. But since we are composed of a mind and a body, why do they leave out of this account of human happiness something that is part of mankind and properly pertains to it? Why do they consider only the mind and neglect the body, when the body houses the mind and is the other half of what man is? If you are seeking the totality of something made up of various parts, and yet some part is missing, I cannot think it perfect and complete. We use the term ‘human’, I take it, to refer to a being with both a mind and a body. And in the same way that the body is not to be thought healthy when some part of it is sick, so man himself cannot be thought happy if he is suffering in some part of himself. As for their assigning happiness to the mind alone on the grounds that it is in some sense the master and ruler of man’s body, it is quite absurd to disregard the body when the mind itself often depends on the state and condition of the body and indeed can do nothing without it. Should we not deride someone we saw sitting on a throne and calling himself a king when he had no courtiers or servants? Should we think someone a fine prince whose servants were slovenly and misshapen? Yet those who would separate the mind from the body in defining human happiness and think that someone whose body is being savaged and tortured may still be happy are just as ludicrous.

I find it surprising that these clever Stoics did not remember when investigating the subject that they themselves were men. Their conclusions came not from what human nature demanded but from what they could contrive in argument. Some of them, in my view, placed so much reliance on their ingenuity and facility in debate that they did not concern themselves with what was actually relevant to the inquiry. They were carried away instead by their enthusiasm for intellectual display, and tended to write what was merely novel and surprising — things we might aspire to, but not ones we should spend any effort in attaining. Then there were some rather cantankerous individuals who thought that we should only aim for what they themselves could imitate or lay claim to. Nature had produced some boorish and inhuman philosophers whose senses had been dulled or cut off altogether, ones who took no pleasure in anything; and these people laid down that the rest of mankind should avoid what their own natural severity and austerity shrank from. Others subsequently entered the debate, men of great and various intellectual abilities, who all delivered a view on what constituted the supreme good according to their own individual disposition. But in the middle of all this error and confusion, Epicurus finally appeared to correct and amend the mistakes of the older philosophers and put forward his own true and certain teaching on happiness.

Thanks Patrikios!

My first reaction to that one is that it is pretty much in line with the others, but maybe not the best of the three. Once again on this one I would give the author credit for focusing first on the issues of the absence of supernatural and life after death.

This is an issue that is addressed at length by DeWitt in several chapters, and it's part of the reason why his book is so important.

I think it's also mentioned by Emily Austin by I'd have to go back and search for where.

A large part of the essential point is that Epicurus is all in favor of the use of practical reasoning based on evidence that can be verified through the senses.

What Epicurus is opposed to is the contention that "logic" (the construction of logical propositions such as A + B = C) is useful only so long as the meaning of A and B and C can be verified ultimately by observations confirmable by the senses. You don't have to see everything directly, but you have to have a chain of evidence that ultimately ends up with something that's observable. That's how Epicurus could be so certain of the existence of "atoms" even though no one at his time (or now, without equipment) has ever seen or touched an individual atom.

And Aristotle's problems often derive from the fact that he was willing to reach conclusions about the existence of a "Prime Mover" that are not verifiable by, and conflict with, the evidence of the senses.

Epicurus vs Pythagoras - Again, I think this one's good, as it focuses on the deepsest issue of whether there is a supernatural structure to life. As in the first video I personally don't approve of saying that Epicurus promotes "simple pleasures." He's very clear that what he promotes is pleasure, and issue is not whether the pleasure is simple but whether the activity produces more pleasure than pain. You'll find that's an important issue to study, EdGenX, but any differences of opinion on that fade in comparison to the areas where most of us fully agree and what Epicurus taught was abosutely clear: (1) There are no supernatural gods, and (2) We do not have immortal souls which survive death.

After we're clear on those two points its up to each individual to choose what pleasures they want to pursue and how much pain they are willing to to obtain those pleasures. Some people may indeed want to go exclusively for pleasures that they deem to be simple, but that's not the way Epicurus expresses it. Yes there are lots of reasons to think that pursuing pleasures well within your means is often the best way to obtain more pleasure than pain, but that's not an absolute and ironclad rule, and to think that it is an absolute and ironclad rule betrays a major misunderstanding of Epicurus. There are no absolute ironclad rules and nature has given us only pleasure and pain as guidance on what to choose and what to avoid.

Letter to Menoeceus:
[126] But the many at one moment shun death as the greatest of evils, at another (yearn for it) as a respite from the (evils) in life. (But the wise man neither seeks to escape life) nor fears the cessation of life, for neither does life offend him nor does the absence of life seem to be any evil. And just as with food he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant.

In this context it's essential also to understand that Epicurus did not limit the meaning of "pleasure" to those of the body. Pleasures of the mind - all the emotional attachments we find valuable in life, are just as important or more so. There are even times when we will give up life itself for a friend if that seems to be the better course. The issue of the meaning of "pleasure" is huge but that's something that isn't mentioned in the videos so best for another post later.

TikTok · Stoic Debates

Check out Stoic Debates’s video.

www.tiktok.com

Thanks for the link! I had not seen those before.

I found this one on Epicurus vs Pascal - not sure if there are more. I like how it focuses on the existence of the supernatural is key to the difference.

TikTok · Stoic Debates

190 likes, 6 comments. “Epicurus vs Blaise Pascal – "Pleasure or Faith: What Leads to Peace?"”

www.tiktok.com

Edit - Just watched the full video. It is definitely focused on the god/life after death / meaning of life issue so I definitely like it! If that's the one you saw it's a good "omen" that you will enjoy your time with us EdGenX!

EdGenX if you can recall a link for the video that you remember watching, it would be interesting for us to see it so please post if you can. Many of the popular presentations of Epicurus will have points in them with which not all of us here will agree, so that video could itself spur an interesting conversation.

Glad to have you! Tell us more about your areas of interest and I am sure we'll have more suggestions.

Welcome Ed!

Ed tells me:

I actually came across Epicurus philosophy about 2 weeks ago. I was online, I think TikTok or YouTube and came across several AI generated philosophy debates. I was inclined to Epicurus point of views on life. I did some more googling and found his friends! I consider myself a life learner and look forward to learning more about Epicurus philosophy

Welcome EdGenX !

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Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Welcome to Episode 311 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
   
This week in the absence of Joshua and Kalosyni we will make a brief review of Dr. Emily Austin's "Epicurus and The Politics Of The Fear of Death," which we have discussed in a recent thread thanks to Pacatus bringing the article to our attention.

Next week we will be back with more Tusculan Disputations, but this week we'll set the stage for more discussion of this very good article.

[media]https://www.spreaker.com/episode/69081712/media

Episode 310 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Neither Happiness Nor Virtue Are Binary States"

[media]https://www.spreaker.com/episode/68900528/media