Posts by Cassius

  • 2022 Epicurus vs Buddhism Compare and Contrast Thread

    "A godlike state of pure pleasure, a disposition of imperturbable joy, free from physical pain and mental anguish. The practice of prudence will lead the wise person to the good life."

    I largely agree with that statement too and think it's a good highlevel summary. At what point however does it need however to have a caveat that since there is no fate, and not every person can become wise (see Diogenes Laertius) that "the practice of prudunce the best course most likely to lead the wide person to a good life" (which hints at the truth that this result is not guaranteed due to factors that sometimes occur that are out of our control.

    Or is that something to explain later after the first statement?

  • Thomas Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

    There's a lot to talk about in that post, probably starting with the basic issue of whether "good" and "evil" have an absolute existence in themselves, or are entirely relative.

    There's also the issue of the relationship of pleasure to good and pain as evil.

    We've talked about some of these before and we can do this here or in the older threads. It's possible we'll split this out after we talk a while too.

    But here are the two older categories where we explored these issues:

    The Relationship Of Pleasure To "Good" And The "Highest Good"

    The Relationship of Pain To "Evil"

    (The latter link is new)

  • Highlighting User Contributions to EpicureanFriends.com

    I think we are basically on top of most of these, but we've had a flurry of activity recently and this is a good time for a reminder.

    If you prepare any kind of lengthy "document" or even a "table" or something like that which is good for future reference., we need to feature it on the front page of the website in a separate box, either as a "blog article" or a "Filebase item" or perhaps even both.

    If you check there now you'll see that we have Nate's list of translations, and I'm working on getting Nate's list of historical figures better featured. We also have the graphic he did a couple of years ago.

    We also have Don's translation of the letter to Menoeceus, and we might elevate his "timeline" to similar status (need to talk to him about that).

    Have I missed any significant contributions that need to be on the front page?

    The basic thing to remember is that posts here in the forum can be pretty long, but for really "long-format" or detailed pieces, it's better to post them either as an "Article" or as a "File" so we can "feature" them and they are easier to find. It might be a good idea to feature more "Comparison Charts" or simply "Charts" as we currently do with the old Stoicism one I prepared. It would really be good either to extend that one into other philosophies, or use separate charts.

    We'll also add something soon on the "A Few Days In Athens" book review.

    But the main point of this post is that we do want to encourage everyone that if you put a lot of effort into any particular project we need to make sure it gets the attention it deserves, so let us know in this thread or otherwise if we've missed something from the past, or if new things are created.

  • Thomas Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

    Epicureans have been unpacking this for 2000+ years

    Lucretius Book One:

    Brown:

    [80] But in these things, I fear, you will suspect you are learning impious rudiments of reason, and entering in a road of wickedness. So, far from this, reflect what sad flagitious deeds Religion has produced. By her inspired, the Grecian chiefs, the first of men, at Aulis, Diana’s altar shamefully defiled with Iphigenia’s blood; her virgin hair a fillet bound, which hung in equal length on either side of her face. She saw her father, covered with sorrow, stand before the altar; for pity to his grief the butchering priests concealed the knife. The city, at the sight, overflowed with tears; the virgin, dumb with fear; fell low upon her knees on the hard Earth; in vain the wretched princess in distress pleaded that she first gave the honored name of Father to the King; but hurried off, and dragged by wicked hands, she, trembling, stood before the altar. Alas! not as a virgin, the solemn forms being duly done, drawn with pleasing force to Hymen’s noble rites, but a chaste maid, just ripe for nuptial joy, falls a sad victim, by a father’s hand, only to beg a kind propitious gale for Grecian ships. Such Scenes of villainy Religion could inspire!

    Humphries:

    I fear that, in these matters, you may think

    You're entering upon a path of crime,

    The A B C's of godlessness. Not so.

    The opposite is true. Too many times

    Religion mothers crime and wickedness.

    Recall how once at Aulis, when the Greeks,

    Those chosen peers, the very first of men,

    Defiled, with a girl's blood, the altar-stone

    Sacred to Artemis. The princess stood

    Wearing the sacred fillets or a veil,

    And sensed but could not see the king her father,

    Agamemnon, standing sorrowful

    Beside the altar, and the priests near-by

    Hiding the knife-blade, and the folk in tears

    At what they saw. She knelt, she spoke no word,

    She was afraid, poor thing. Much good it did her

    At such a time to have been the very first

    To give the king that other title, Father!

    Raised by men's hands and trembling she was led

    Toward the altar, not to join in song

    After the ritual of sacrifice

    To the bright god of marriage. No; she fell

    A victim by the sacrificing stroke

    Her father gave, to shed her virgin blood-

    Not the way virgins shed it - but in death,

    To bring the fleet a happy exodus!

    A mighty counselor, Religion stood

    With all that power for wickedness.

  • Historical References on the School of Epicurean Philosophy - Notable Epicureans From The Ancient World To Today

    One aspect of this we need is:

    (1) Notable "living" people who identify with Epicurus (and again I would exclude here our current internet-based people like this website, or Society of Epicurus, or the Greek Gardens), because we're looking for "notable" that the public might recognize. As per my prior comments I don't think Christopher Hitchens (who is now dead of course, but alive fairly recently) really qualifies.

    (2) As to "scholars" who might not be notable but would have a reputation in the academic community, I note that Nate's list doesn't include scholars such as DeWitt. That's to be expected, because to my knowledge DeWitt himself never proclaimed that he himself was an Epicurean, and the fair assumption is that DeWitt was probably some form of Christian. However it's notable that DeWitt appears to have been one of the most recent people to have devoted his professional career to the study of Epicurus, and DeWitt's works are probably some of the few that are not filled with dismissals and efforts to point out Epicurus' alleged errors. I doubt we could consider Sedley or Tsouna as people who are primarily devoted in their professional career to promoting Epicurean views sympathetically. We might possibly consider Bailey, given the amount of work he put into both Lucretius and Epicurus, but Bailey seems to me to be mostly hostile to Epicurus's ethics and probably other parts of his philosophy as well. Another name to consider would be Martin Ferguson Smith, who I would place somewhere between Bailey and DeWitt.

  • Historical References on the School of Epicurean Philosophy - Notable Epicureans From The Ancient World To Today

    For some reason I woke up thinking about this today. Although I am not interested in seeing us "play to the crowd," most of us live and work among people who are almost exclusively non-Epicurean, and know little about Epicurus.

    At some point it becomes a logical and reasonable question for them to ask:

    "I've never really heard of Epicurus, or anyone who said that they were Epicurean. Those views you are talking about sound pretty underground to me and actually bordering on evil. Of course I know you and I like you, but can you name me one reputable person over the last three hundred years who has labelled themselves an Epicurean? Hopefully you can name more than one obscure name, but if you can't, maybe we better talk about getting you some medical help. I know this great counselor who specializes in Dialectical Behavior Therapy!"

    My comment to that:

    I've heard people suggest names like Christopher Hitchens and all sorts of people who have said one or two good things about Epicurus, but there are very few who come anywhere close to embracing his entire philosophy, much less actually committed to writing "I too am an Epicurean."

    I think this is a legitimate conversation topic with the outside world, so I think we need to work on our response. I know Nate has produced a very good list of historical Epicureans, and I think Don has done something similar in terms of a time frame or time line analysis.

    I will start a new thread and link to those two sets of materials and let's see what we can do to expand this.

    Nate's Research Discussion Thread: RE: Early Epicurean Community - Listing of Known Epicureans Thoughout History

    Nate's Research Consolidated For Publishing: Epicurean Philosophers by Nathan H. Bartman

    Don's Timeline: Updated Alternative Timeline of Epicurean History

    New Page Devoted to this in Lexicon:

  • Thomas Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

    Quote from Don

    I have any number of problems with Thomas Jefferson and remain ambivalent with regards to him. He's never been one of my favorite Founders (I'm more a Franklin fan). I've also never been entirely comfortable with his image being in the header to this forum, but that is entirely Cassius 's call.

    For some reason I woke up thinking about this today and this comment comes to mind:

    Although I am not interested in seeing us "play to the crowd," most of us live and work among people who are almost exclusively non-Epicurean, and know little about Epicurus.

    At some point it becomes a logical and reasonable question for them to ask:

    "I've never really heard of Epicurus, or anyone who said that they were Epicurean. Those views you are talking about sound pretty underground to me and actually bordering on evil. Of course I know you and I like you, but can you name me one reputable person over the last three hundred years who has labelled themselves an Epicurean? Hopefully you can name more than one obscure name, but if you can't, maybe we better talk about getting you some medical help. I know this great counselor who specializes in Dialectical Behavior Therapy!"

    My comment to that:

    I've heard people suggest names like Christopher Hitchens and all sorts of people who have said one or two good things about Epicurus, but there are very few who come anywhere close to embracing his entire philosophy, much less actually committed to writing "I too am an Epicurean."

    I think this is a legitimate conversation topic with the outside world, so I think we need to work on our response. I know Nate has produced a very good list of historical Epicureans, and I think Don has done something similar in terms of a time frame or time line analysis.

    I will start a new thread and link to those two sets of materials and let's see what we can do to expand this.

    Let's continue this part of this thread in the new location: Historical References on the School of Epicurean Philosophy - Ancient World To Today

  • "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #2: Chapter Two (Feb 6 - 8:00 PM EST) (Sun, Feb 6th 2022, 8:00 pm-9:00 pm)

    Outline of Events in Chapter Two:

    Chapter 2 Summary – Epicurus introduces Theon to the Garden

    1. Epicurus introduces Theon to his students and asks them to welcome him, but Epicurus advises them to use their own eyes and ears and not trust his endorsement.
    2. Introduction of Leontium, female friend and student of Epicurus.
    3. Leontium states that she has been studying Theophrastus (successor to Aristotle) and found him to be arrogant.
    4. Leontium states that she and Metrodorus have been debating the question “Whether the vicious were more justly objects of indignation or of contempt.”
    5. Epicurus gives his opinion – “neither” – and states that Time is the teacher of this verdict.
    6. Epicurus and Metrodorus discuss Metrodorus’ past vices and present redemption from them.
    7. Theon recounts that Timocrates had denounced Epicurus at the Stoic assembly.
    8. Theon states that Zeno must fail to understand Epicurus’ doctrine – Epicurus corrects Theon on this point.

  • "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #2: Chapter Two (Feb 6 - 8:00 PM EST) (Sun, Feb 6th 2022, 8:00 pm-9:00 pm)

    Cassius started a new event:

    Event

    "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #2: Chapter Two (Feb 6 - 8:00 PM EST)

    "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #2: Chapter Two (Feb 6 - 8:00 PM EST)

    This will be the second session on "A Few Days In Athens," and we will talk about Chapter Two.

    The rough agenda for our one hour session is:

    1 - Twenty Minute or so overview of Frances Wright, the Introduction, and Chapter Two by led Cassius and any other volunteer regular forum participants who have read the whole book.

    2 - Brief introduction of everyone on the call. (We will go around the zoom list and ask…
    Sun, Feb 6th 2022, 8:00 pm – 9:00 pm
    Cassius
    January 31, 2022 at 7:03 PM

  • 2022 Epicurus vs Buddhism Compare and Contrast Thread

    Quote from Godfrey

    Not to make this chart idea even more complicated, but it seems as if it would need a time element as well. What major form(s) of Indian Buddhism was active at the time of the ancient Greeks v what major forms are currently available to Westerners.

    I think Godfrey knows me well enough that I am not saying this to be disagreeable, but that kind of historical exposition is probably beyond what people here would need, unless they are truly historians. Several of the comments above have made points about "Secular Buddhism"" or something similar, and in truth that's probably where our focus ought to be: we're here to help people, so our efforts probably ought to focus on the major forms into which people we come into contact with regularly would have themselves come into contact with it. Almost like, again using the analogy of the Hermotimus dialogue, there were sort of like callers from the varying schools on every corner, calling people into their particular school. It would be those high-sounding and attractive points that they would focus on to get people attracted in the first place, and I would think a lot of the distinctions we are most needing to know are probably visible even on that superficial level.

    Does it really surprise people who are first being attracted to Buddhism that "nothingness" is a central idea? I suspect most people get that message pretty quickly, and it's already at that level that the warning flags and buzzers need to be waving and going off in our minds.

  • A Depression Thread at the Epicurean Philosophy Facebook Page

    This is more than a little off topic but that juxtaposition of dual roles reminds me of this line from Paine's "Age of Reason":

    Quote

    The Bible of the creation is inexhaustible in texts. Every part of science, whether connected with the geometry of the universe, with the systems of animal and vegetable life, or with the properties of inanimate matter, is a text as well for devotion as for philosophy-—for gratitude, as for human improvement. It will perhaps be said, that if such a revolution in the system of religion takes place, every preacher ought to be a philosopher. Most certainly, and every house of devotion a school of science.

    http://klymkowskylab.colorado.edu/Readings/Thomas%20Paine%20-%20The%20Age%20of%20Reason.pdf

  • 2022 Epicurus vs Buddhism Compare and Contrast Thread

    Quote

    "I think it’s safe to assume that most of us (meaning all humans) are not overly happy people in general. Life allows for some pleasures here and there…the basics, but real joys are sometimes few and far between. I personally often feel a level of somberness that comes with a litany of experiences."

    This observation is a key one. There's something about the way different people categorize their view of life that we're really dealing with here, and I don't think it's a purely "logical" difference in conclusion. I don't know if it's cultural, clinical, genetic, chemical, educational, or some combination of these or even other factors, but to reach the conclusion that "life allows for some pleasures here and there...." is indeed a somber attitude that everyone does not share.

    I would have to think about better ways to illustrate it than this quote, but this is what comes immediately to mind from the "head and heart" letter:


    Founders Online: From Thomas Jefferson to Maria Cosway, 12 October 1786
    founders.archives.gov


    Maybe these sentiments are hard to reduce to a logical formula, but I see in the difference between these two perspectives something that goes to the heart of Epicurus vs the Buddhist perspective.

  • 2022 Epicurus vs Buddhism Compare and Contrast Thread

    It's almost like we need a chart with the major different branches on the X axis and the major beliefs on the Y and then check boxes or short yes or no entries in the grid at each intersection?

    Again this is never likely to satisfy a committed Buddhist, but that's not our audience or intent here. Rather we are aiming only at a fair overview helpful for our own needs in categorizing the issues.

    We've never satisfied the Stoics in our comparisons there, and we won't satisfy the Buddhists, but since we are neither that's a secondary consideration.

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