Posts by Cassius

Quote from smoothiekiwi

Aristotle... wasn't that this position?

Thats a good question that we will have to one day figure out. Do you have a reference that you were thinking of, or anything in particular?

The only thing that I am aware of that may be applicable is that supposedly Aristotle transferred Plato's "ideas" from an external existence I may realm beyond the reach of the senses to an "intrinsic" or "essentialist" existence inside the object under consideration (things that appear yellow have an essence of yellow in them).

But I could not provide you with a good cite to that either, so unfortunately I am not in position to clarify the question.

Quote from Scott

The particular article you referenced, and its author, are not however, a very good sources of information. The article is littered with many bits of accurate information and truths, but also... lots of unsupported assertions, interesting anecdotal evidence, conflations, stretched analogies, etc. Debunking all those would take gobs of time. However, the article does stir up thought and offers interesting insights. I'

Yes you're definitely right. I didn't take the time to research him other than in the most cursory way, and so reading into the question really probably starts with the type article Don referenced combined with our own anecdote of personal experiences. I really considered the first part of the article (the only part I did more than "skim") as little more than an assertion of personal experience too.

I think I've read enough already not to be anxious about getting the "one eight hour chunk" type of sleep.

Like most people probably I have long been aware of the "siesta" in some cultures, but I've never followed up on that to see what that means for how long such people sleep at night.

Yes I am for the moment discounting that he has any real science behind him and just entertaining how the general observation compares with my (our!) Own experience. But even more, the thought that there may be a parallel between (1) modern health issues in regard to sugar and (2) modern sleep conditions in fact being more supportive of sleep at least physically, strikes me as possible.

I wish I could compare this to something in the Epicurean texts (probably Lucretius) but I am not able to think of anything on point, with the possible exception of the issue of "romantic love" or maybe more generally "wealth" to which we today may be more overstimulated then in the past.

in the study of Epicurus we find ourselves with a fair share of people who are going through rough times in their lives, and one of the ways that rough times manifest themselves is in alteration of "normal" sleep patterns.

A friend today sent me this article linked below, by someone who claims that we should re-examine just how much sleep is healthy. He argues that at times less sleep can correlate with a better - and not worse - frame of mind.

I know nothing about the author of this article and his qualifications or views on any other subject, but the opening section caught my eye, and I wonder how it correlates with the views of others here. The challenging initial section that caught my eye was this:

Quote

Comfortable modern sleep is an unnatural superstimulus. Sleepiness, just like hunger, is normal.

In this section, I make the following analogy:

1. Experiencing hunger is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are not eating enough. Never being hungry means you are probably eating too much.
2. Experiencing sleepiness is normal and does not necessarily imply that you are undersleeping. Never being sleepy means you are probably sleeping too much.

Read the section and see what you think: https://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/

Most of us i think probably agree that oversleeping correlates with some form or degree of depression.

So maybe occasionally being up at 2:30 AM, and being sleepy during the day, is not such a bad thing at all?

The Torquatus material is a gold mine and we have not finished it yet. The. We can turn to the letter to Herodotus (I think) which is also widely ignored but also very deep.

Joshua I very much appreciate both you and Martin and I agree this is very good stuff that needs wider circulation. The projects we could undertake are literally neverending but materials like this give us a base with which to work!

I am beginning to focus in on "always wants to go to new restaurants" as really good litmus test of something. Not sure exactly what, but a really good test

Quote from Kalosyni

It's important to see that if one just launches into pursuing pleasure then there is a chance that is it just a temporary "band-aid"...although there could be a place for this in some situations.

Yes I agree with this. Another reason is that of course we often choose pain for the larger-scale results, so even when we are in pain we might need to choose MORE pain (temporarily) to get out of the particular situation we are in.

This thread will contain system-generated Happy Birthday messages.

I think it probably makes sense to encourage users to use their Timelines to post just a little info about themselves, so rather than set up separate threads for each user, or post those greetings in this thread, let's allow the system to notify us of new birthdays in this thread, and then place greetings on the user timeline.

Episode 108 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. In this week's episode we discuss the benefits of the study of natural science, and how that study supports our reliance on the senses and our ability to live successfully.

For me the subject of empathy always comes down to: The "empath" episode of Stat trek the original series is virtually unwatchable and the very worst of the episodes as far as I am concerned. It is also the only episode that, as soon as the episode selection becomes clear, requires changing the channel to something else.

I've neve liked that weird French style of white face painting either. Pantomime - is that related to this topic?

Sorry for the tangents there.....

It is interesting how this subject is a lot trickier than first meets the eye.

Yikes. The main thing I get from that is that is going to pay to be cautious in taking positions on this topic.

This calls to mind how DeWitt comments that Lucretius seems to contain very little information on this subject, but that may be because Diogenes Laertius is the muddy one.

Maybe DeWitt is correct in pointing to the Velleius material as the best way to unwind the issues.

Very complicated and unclear subject.

In regard to what Kalosyni's comment on always looking for new restaurants being an indicator of marriage failure (kind of funny even to say that) here is what I remembered from Jefferson (Letter to Peter Carr - August 10 1787) Not the same thing, but probably related:

Quote

Traveling. This makes men wiser, but less happy. When men of sober age travel, they gather knowledge, which they may apply usefully for their country; but they are subject ever after to recollections mixed with regret; their affections are weakened by being extended over more objects; & they learn new habits which cannot be gratified when they return home. Young men, who travel, are exposed to all these inconveniences in a higher degree, to others still more serious, and do not acquire that wisdom for which a previous foundation is requisite, by repeated and just observations at home. The glare of pomp and pleasure is analogous to the motion of the blood; it absorbs all their affection and attention, they are torn from it as from the only good in this world, and return to their home as to a place of exile & condemnation. Their eyes are forever turned back to the object they have lost, & its recollection poisons the residue of their lives. Their first & most delicate passions are hackneyed on unworthy objects here, & they carry home the dregs, insufficient to make themselves or anybody else happy. Add to this, that a habit of idleness, an inability to apply themselves to business is acquired, & renders them useless to themselves & their country. These observations are founded in experience. There is no place where your pursuit of knowledge will be so little obstructed by foreign objects, as in your own country, nor any, wherein the virtues of the heart will be less exposed to be weakened. Be good, be learned, & be industrious, & you will not want the aid of traveling, to render you precious to your country, dear to your friends, happy within yourself. I repeat my advice, to take a great deal of exercise, & on foot. Health is the first requisite after morality. Write to me often, & be assured of the interest I take in your success, as well as the warmth of those sentiments of attachment with which I am, dear Peter, your affectionate friend.

"Well, thats exactly the point Aristotle makes- that there's no absolute virtue, because everything is dependent on..."

Did you mean Aristotle there, or Epicurus?

Quote from Kalosyni

You'll be able to judge this trait in the way that people enjoy eating because they will be the ones who are continually seeking out new restuarants to try...so eventually they will lose interest in the "comfort sex" of marriage.

That sounds right to me, and it reminds me of something Thomas Jefferson is quoted to have said too (if I can remember it I will post it!)

I agree with Nate's application of the mean issue to pleasure.

However in addition to that I think there is something more, maybe though just because I have a superficial knowledge of how people talk about a "golden mean."

Superficially, I gather the golden mean is used as a rule of thumb (or logic) postulating that there are always two extremes, and that there is always a "best" that lies in an exact middle ground between the two.

I am sure that is oversimplifying the issue but I do gather that that is what a lot of people take the meaning to be.

And taken on that broad level, I don't think there is a way under the Epicuran view of nature that such a mechanism could function. As "golden mean" is frequently used, the result is a word game implying that it is generally possible to solve problems by looking for extremes, and (so to speak) adding them together and dividing by two. I don't think Epicurus would say that the world works that way in regard to pleasure or anything else either.

So I generally react negatively to "golden mean" analysis.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I've thought for some time about this topic. Aristotles argument, that virtue lies in the middle of two extremes, seems irrefutable to me... and actually applicable to almost every aspect in life.

Great question SmoothieKiwi and something we ought to discuss at length.

I has been my view in trying to compare Epicurus to Aristotle that Aristotle's "golden mean" argument is not helpful in the least, and is an extension of his belief in categories that are artificial and built on abstact logic not tied to reality.

How does one know where the 'Extremes" are in order to interpolate a middle? To me what is too much, too little, and just right seems to me to be totally dependent on circumstances, and to imply that there is a "middle" that is always "just right" is probably something that muddies rather than clarifies.

I think this is a good topic to develop because we do come across it a lot so I am very interested in hearing opinions. But my preliminary view has been and is so far that just like there are no "Absolutes" in a atomistic eternal infinite universe, there is also nothing particularly reliable about picking out arbitrary "extremes" or "middle."

We can all understand what is meant in general by too much, too little, and just right, but as far as being able to pin down extremes and a middle, it seems to me that those are also both matters that are totally dependent on circumstances and details, and not something that can be determined "as a rule" or "in general" or through any purely "logical" analysis.

Is it fair to say that compassion derives from something more closely akin to "with feeling"? That would be easier for me to understand as a word that is more uniformly to be endorsed than "piety"

so ok pity is related to PIETY - and that probably helps explain its mixed implications.

I think Don is coming from the perspective I assumed to be true, that pity and compassion mean pretty much exactly the same thing.

I need to read the etymology of pity

But after reading some of the Nietzsche material and hearing Scott and Kalosyni say that they consider them to be different as informed by their Buddhist reading, there seems to be more going on than I understood.

We're probably going to have a situation where our goal of articulating the proper view of compassion, or the role of compassion in Epicurus, requires some careful explanation.

Lest it sound like a word game, the reason for the discussion is making sure that suffering is understood as something to work to eliminate, not something to nurse along as a pet doe improper motives, such as excusing us from taking action to seek pleasure or eliminate the pain that can be eliminated.

I get the sense that in that direction is where the criticism of pity lies, and it is justified, but that there is an entirely different and proper role for compassion.

And on this score, as in several others we will definitely run into, we may need to be careful against reading too much into Frances Wrights interpretation.

Last comment would be that it seems to me that in modern usage pretty much everyone sees "compassion" as a virtue. However that does not seem to be the case with "pity" which seems to carry other and varying meaning.