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"A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #5: Chapter Four

"A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting

This will be the fifth session on "A Few Days In Athens," and we will talk about Chapter Four.

The rough agenda for our one hour session is:

1 - Twenty Minute or so overview of Frances Wright, the Introduction, and Chapter Two by led Cassius and any other volunteer regular forum participants who have read the whole book.

2 - Brief introduction of everyone on the call. (We will go around the zoom list and ask everyone to say their first names (real or…

Sun, Feb 27th 2022, 8:00 pm – 9:00 pm

Cassius

February 21, 2022 at 6:28 AM

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"A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting

This will be the fifth session on "A Few Days In Athens," and we will talk about Chapter Four.

The rough agenda for our one hour session is:

1 - Twenty Minute or so overview of Frances Wright, the Introduction, and Chapter Two by led Cassius and any other volunteer regular forum participants who have read the whole book.

2 - Brief introduction of everyone on the call. (We will go around the zoom list and ask everyone to say their first names (real or otherwise) and tell us about their background and interest in Epicurus. For example: "My name is Joshua, I am from (country), and I have been interested in Epicurus ever since _______________. I have read (describe how many books on Epicurus you have read) and I have / have not read the entire "A Few Days In Athens."

3 - After we do the introductions, we will then open the floor for open discussion of Chapter Two from all participants. Depending on how many people we have we will probably use the "raise your hand" method of going around the table with Cassius or other moderator calling on people to keep the conversation organized. We will monitor the text chat also and people can use that to indicate that they want to speak, and what about.

Note: The use of video is strictly optional. We anticipate many of our friends will choose to use audio only.

Important Links:

Link to PDF of the original book at Archive.org.

AFDIA Website with the entire book: http://www.afewdaysinathens.com

Link to previous and ongoing discussion of chapter two here at EpicureanFriends - Please post new substantive comments about the topic of the chapter here, where the text is also located: https://www.epicureanfriends.com/index.php?thread/741-afdia-chapter-two-text-and-discussion/

Discussion thread for 2022 meeting logistics - please post comments about your attendance or other non-substantive comments here: "A Few Days In Athens" Zoom Book Club Meeting #2: Chapter Two (Feb 6 - 8:00 PM EST) (Sun, Feb 6th 2022, 8:00 pm-9:00 pm)

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Cassius Amicus is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

Topic: AFDIA / 20th Epicurean Combo Zoom Meeting

Time: Feb 20, 2022 08:00 PM Eastern Time (US and Canada)

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Other than the credit being more than we deserve, I'd be happy to see you leave a version of that up, as it does provide encouragement to everyone to continue.

Also, what you are describing is very close to the reason we started the forum in the first place. The academics don't have the motivation to restore a practical understanding of Epicurus that laymen (those who are not experts in philosophy) can understand. At very best most of the academics are eclectic and just looking to add a few twists to their existing paradigms. In any case, their primary goal is not "popularization" of the philosophy.

I think giving Epicurus a chance requires a complete review of all the basics with fresh eyes, and that more than anything else I think is why Norman DeWitt set the model for the approach. We may differ with him on some details, but he was the first and most effective major modern academic writer to devote his career to Epicurus and try to present his entire philosophy accurately but also sympathetically to a wider audience. I don't think anyone yet has surpassed him or even tried to duplicate what he produced in "Epicurus And His Philosophy."

What we are doing in threads like this is picking up where he left off, updating it with the latest discoveries, and fine tuning some of his interpretations.

The next step after that is harnessing the technology to create true online cooperative "schools,'" and then extend that into real-world events and relationships. I use the plural because I think we'll have lots of people doing something similar as time goes by, but they need the formulations and other raw materials that we are working on here. This forum germinated from relationships formed on Facebook, and from this forum and what we can develop here and elsewhere lots more is possible.

Happy Birthday to Strix! Learn more about Strix and say happy birthday here or on the user timeline: Strix

I wonder if we can begin to summarize practical takeaways from this thread. Would they include something like the following?

1 I think most or all of us are unimpressed that the idea of a golden mean is very helpful for much of anything, and it is likely more of a harmful oversimplification than a help.

2 To the extent that someone asks us to explain what was Epicurus' position on "the greatest good," would the explanation start with a statement that "greatest good was not Epicurus' preferred formulation, which instead was ________________." (?)

3 That to the extent "greatest good" is taken to imply that there are multiple independent goods that can be ranked, Epicurus' viewpoint was distinctively that:

A. In order to be classified as good a thing must produce pleasure / remove pain, and

B. That these pleasures and pains are both bodily and mental so we are talking about an innumerable variety of pleasures and pains, not just immediate bodily sensations, and

C. That any ranking of pleasures and pains is substantially personal and contextual and although generalizations can be made (i.e., being boiled in oil is very unpleasant for most people) there is no final list that is absolute for everyone, and

D. That there are an innumerable number of things that are instrumental in producing pleasure, including the classical virtues and many other things. While there is no absolute ranking of these, Epicurus specially noted that among the most important are friendship and prudence.

If this is way off let's keep working and try again and see where we can improve it.

Let me emphasize an interesting question that Kevin brings out around the halfway mark of the episode.

What do you think was Francis Wrights point in the way she elaborated on Metrodorus' portrait of Leontium?

We discuss a number of possible options, but none strike me as totally satisfactory. If you have a position to suggest or support, please post in this thread.

Here is the video recap of our first session on Chapter Three, from February of 2022:

The discussion from Chapter Three where Kevin (who is a philosophy professor) touches on some of the issues we are discussing in this thread.

Welcome to Episode One Hundred Ten of Lucretius Today.

This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

I am your host Cassius, and together with our panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

At this point in our podcast we have completed our first line-by-line review of the poem, and we have turned to the presentation of Epicurean ethics found in Cicero's On Ends. Today we complete the section on Friendship.

Now let's join Joshua reading today's text:

[66] I see then that friendship has been discussed by our school in three ways. Some, denying that the pleasures which affect our friends are in themselves as desirable to us as those we desire for ourselves, a view which certain persons think shakes the foundation of friendship, still defend their position, and in my opinion easily escape from their difficulties. For they affirm that friendship, like the virtues of which we spoke already, cannot be dissociated from pleasure. Now since isolation and a life without friends abound in treacheries and alarms, reason herself advises us to procure friendships, by the acquisition of which the spirit is strengthened, and cannot then be severed from the hope of achieving pleasures.

[67] And as enmity, spitefulness, scorn, are opposed to pleasures, so friendships are not only the truest promoters, but are actually efficient causes of pleasures, as well to a man's friends as to himself; and friends not only have the immediate enjoyment of these pleasures but are elate with hope as regards future and later times. Now because we can by no means apart from friendship preserve the agreeableness of life strong and unbroken, nor further can we maintain friendship itself unless we esteem our friends in the same degree as ourselves; on that account this principle is acted on in friendship, and so friendship is linked with pleasure. Truly we both rejoice at the joy of our friends as much as at our own joy, and we are equally pained by their vexations.

[68] Therefore the wise man will entertain the same feeling for his friend as for himself, and the very same efforts which he would undergo to procure his own pleasure, these he will undergo to procure that of his friend. And all that we said of the virtues to shew how they always have their root in pleasures, must be said over about friendship. For it was nobly declared by Epicurus, almost in these words: "It is one and the same feeling which strengthens the mind against the fear of eternal or lasting evil, and which clearly sees that in this actual span of life the protection afforded by friendship is the most powerful of all."

[69] There are however certain Epicureans who are somewhat more nervous in facing the reproaches of your school, but are still shrewd enough ; these are afraid that if we suppose friendship to be desirable with a view to our own pleasure, friendship may appear to be altogether maimed, as it were. So they say that while the earliest meetings and associations and tendencies towards the establishment of familiarity do arise on account of pleasure, yet when experience has gradually produced intimacy, then affection ripens to such a degree that though no interest be served by the friendship, yet friends are loved in themselves and for their own sake. Again, if by familiarity we get to love localities, shrines, cities, the exercise ground, the park, dogs, horses, and exhibitions either of gymnastics or of combats with beasts, how much more easily and properly may this come about when our familiarity is with human beings?

[70] Men are found to say that there is a certain treaty of alliance which binds wise men not to esteem their friends less than they do themselves. Such alliance we not only understand to be possible, but often see it realized, and it is plain that nothing can be found more conducive to pleasantness of life than union of this kind. From all these different views we may conclude that not only are the principles of friendship left unconstrained, if the supreme good be made to reside in pleasure, but that without this view it is entirely impossible to discover a basis for friendship.

Ok in less than an hour I will have the third zoom meeting on A Few Days In Athens up and I will post it here. Most of that discussion turned out to revolve around issues similar to what we are discussing here. I don't add much myself that you haven't heard already, but Kevin Guilfoy (the philosopher teacher) has some interesting comments on one and many goods, comparing Epicurus view of the highest good to the Stoics, etc. I am sorry I did not get this posted earlier! Unfortunately this week I had to produce three separate productions, and I am finding that two is about my productive limit.

Quote from Don

Maybe I'll rejoin in 2024 when you get to Menoikeus

I am not so optimistic we will get there that quickly!

Quote from Don

but it's all I got

I think I am going to suggest to the podcast team that our next stop after we finish Torquatus in the next couple of weeks will be to go back to Epicurus' own letters, Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus, in that order.

Especially Herodotus I don't think we have given nearly the attention it deserves, and we are much better equipped to do that now after going through the last two years of podcasting.

I agree with most of what is written above, but one additional point I would include is that the Latin authorities were much closer to the Greek language and to the Epicurean texts than we will ever be (as to both).

So when we know that someone like Lucretius is trying to be faithful, I think their interpretations are entitled to great deference, even to the extent of considering them to have much more expertise than our own efforts to grasp the Greek.

Welcome Marabrabant (whose post above is I think their first). I usually get around to posting a "Welcome" thread more quickly, but I was unusually tied up today. Again Welcome and I hope you will let us know a little about your background in Epicurus. Welcome Marabrabant!

I suppose I have been around too many hunters or something so when I heard the term "scattershot" i was immediately taken back as I interpret the term as generally negative. I should have had more confidence in Joshua and I wouldn't have been alarmed and had to backtrack.

I have been really tied up today and not able to keep up so trying to do that now. At the moment my primary thought is:

I really like Post #83

Welcome Marabrabant

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Don

Yes.

Well if it is, that is what we need to work to explain, and we haven't even cracked the book on beginning to describe a tentative elaboration on that, or on what its implications are, or on how something very real and concrete relates to something abstract and conceptual like a "greatest good."

As I wake up this morning it strikes me as potentially obvious at least from our modern biological point of view that all pleasures are the same in at least (1) the way we define them as pleasure and (2) in the biological way that the sensation registers within our brains. What I mean there is, and I am not up on modern terminology, is that whatever the electro-chemical process is by which or minds recognize pleasure, that electro-chemical process likely functions in the same way for all pleasures. So in that sense the way in which we perceive pleasures internally likely IS pretty much the same for all pleasures. Is *that* what Epicurus was talking about?