Posts by Cassius

Happy birthday both to Joshua and also (if I understand correctly) Kalosyni! Two important figures for our forum in one day!

Quote from Don

Seems to me this would be talking about epitomes and summaries vs full lectures and books, e.g., letter to Herodotus vs the books of On Nature.

Yes I'd say it "could," but if I were collecting maxims of the golden words of Epicurus I suspect I would have found one a little more useful about pleasure or death or the gods to include, and left that one out

Quote from Titus

One could also think of it as a critique of the argument: "This is science!" (and therefore truth - trust me, not your senses). Do you think this is appropriate or does it overstretch the argument?

At first thought i don't have much info to offer on the other points but I definitely agree that this is part of Epicurus' attitude. Any kind of argument from "authority" where people are supposed to accept a conclusion that they cannot themselves understand as opposed to what their own senses tell them is going to be highly scrutinized. The Epicureans were confronting their own contemporary arguments about the application of "science" and "mathematics" on the implications of issues such as the size of the sun and the nature of the stars, and separating what can be proved from what goes too far is always tricky.

Happy Birthday to Joshua! Learn more about Joshua and say happy birthday on Joshua's timeline: Joshua

I agree there is probably more going on here too. Isn't there a parallel reference somewhere (Lucretius?) to different birds using different types of calls? I could see potentially some context of discussion of language or even the "frank speech" issue being involved here too. I would generally expect a deeper philosophic point than Bailey seems to be accepting in order for a passage to make the cut into a collection.

Yes Don it sure looks like Bailey is trying to claim a higher status for philosophy because he is disposed in that direction.

It in fact looks at least as much that they were concerned about asserting how some pleasures come as a result of excitement or stimulation (eat and drink and sex) while others accompany the natural functioning (of body or in this case the mind) even when stimulation or excitement is absent.

Given the nonstandard manner of speaking I could well imagine that from start to finish the Epicureans were regularly coming up with illustrations of how to think of pleasure as *every* experience of life which is not painful. That's not the normal way of thinking, but if you do take that attitude then it transforms the vocabulary and leads to all sorts of new constructions.

It's pretty easy to see that pleasure has to arise coincidentally with the activity in many cases (but not all) for this approach to work.

Quote from Kalosyni

Perhaps this list could be made into a pamplet, or something good for new forum members to read.

Yes I suspect that ww have earlier threads on this, perhaps linked in the FAQ, so the challenge here is not only to come up with a list but make it findable and curated with new additions over time.

Thank you for these commentaries Don!

Pacatus in the book Dr. Boeri and Dr Aioz go into detail analogizing the development of justice and the development of language, which they believe (I think correctly) are both related to prolepsis. I don't recall a lot of detail to offer more than that, but what I think is a part of their analysis is that justice and language emerge naturally, without being handed down by gods or dictated by a few "great men," or existing as a result of Platonic ideals, and so there are going to be differences in conceptions of justice just as there are differences in language.

I am not exactly sure if or how that relates to your second paragraph but I think it probably does.

As you know I asked Dr. Boeri to clarify what he meant, as I figured I was not the only one who was unsure. I took his answer to mean much what Lucretius references in DRN -- constantly standing for electoral office and running time after time even after defeat after defeat. For us oldersters out there, there was someone who used to run for president year after year. I don't think I am thinking of Lyndon Larouche, or even Pat Paulson, but someone else (?)

(Edit - Maybe I am thinking "Harold Stassen" but I am skirting near the no politics rule so I'll stop there )

Thanks very much for those links, Don. Adding them to the Youtube version.

Before I forget, special thanks to Onenski for his assistance with setting up this episode and conducting the interview. Scheduling issues prevented most of our regular podcasters from attending, but Onenski stepped in and did a great job. Thank you!

There's a lot more to learn from Frances Wright too. There are several good articles in her collections of works that were published after "A Few Days In Athens," some of which I review briefly in the section here on the forum devoted to her. I don't think we can call her 100% Epicurean, but she's pretty close to 100% fearless!

Well once you get your priorities in order and finish the game, I think you'll be very pleased with Dr. Boeri has to say!

Youtube version for easier sharing and greater discovery:

Our interview with Dr. Boeri is now live!

Quote from Titus

while also granting enjoyment of pleasure as long as the enjoyment doesn't collide with freedom from pain

Looking at that from Torquatus' perspective, that is like saying "as long as the enjoyment of pleasure doesn't collide with pleasure."

And that's the problem with those who aren't willing to straightforwardly identify freedom from pain as pleasure and see that the overall goal is not some kind of definition of "freedom from pain" that conflicts with or is superior to pleasure, but "pleasure" itself.

Deferring to Cicero and Plutarch and others who insist that "freedom from pain" is not a term that is identical to "pleasure" makes this paradox forever unintelligible. But I wager that is what the "humanists" will always do, because like Cicero they insist on seeing "being human" as something higher than pleasure. They refuse to take the next step andsay that "being human in the absence of pain" IS pleasure.

We may have a little "live-action" reporting in this episode. Martin will be calling in today live from the Gottingen Architectual Museum where he is visiting the artifacts relating to Epicurus. Anyone who is reading this shortly after I am posting it is welcome to post questions or picture requests to Martin!

Quote from Kalosyni

Regarding "freedom from pain is the height of pleasure" - I would say this is a kind of remedy which is similar to "death is nothing to us". Without a thorough contemplation and using the mind to reason through them, then both of these do not appear to make sense - so it takes thinking in order to see the application of these two points.

YES that is the key part. It takes proper thinking to recognize this pleasure. Maybe that is similar to how it takes a movement of the will to summon up a happy memory, which is there and is always pleasurable when you reflect on it, but which requires that act of reflection to experience. You have to practice this perspective or you don't profit from it and if you don't the competing pains can override it.

PD18. The pleasure in the flesh is not increased when once the pain due to want is removed, but is only varied: and the limit as regards pleasure in the mind is begotten by the reasoned understanding of these very pleasures, and of the emotions akin to them, which used to cause the greatest fear to the mind.

PD19. Infinite time contains no greater pleasure than limited time, if one measures, by reason, the limits of pleasure.

Welcome to Episode 197 of the Lucretius Today Podcast. Today we are very privileged to present to you an interview with Dr. Marcelo Boeri, Professor of Ancient Philosophy at the Pontifical Catholic University of Chile. Dr. Boeri is originally from Buenos Aires, and after receiving his Ph.D. from the University of Salvador in 1995, he has worked extensively in the field of Ancient Greek philosophy ever since, lecturing at many distinguished universities around the world.

We are greatly appreciative of Dr. Boeri taking time from his busy schedule to talk with us today about his excellent new book, co-written with Javier Aoiz, entitled Theory and Practice In Epicurean Political Philosophy - Security, Justice, and Tranquility. This book is an excellent addition to the field of Epicurean studies, and I would encourage everyone who has any interest in Epicurus' views on engagement with society to be sure to check out this extensively researched and very well argued book.

Dr. Boeri's academic background and contact information: https://filosofia.uc.cl/academicos-2/5…7-boeri-marcelo