Posts by Cassius

This original text may be better than the footnote as it appears significantly more detailed.

Hope we can eventually find a photo of it.

Not sure yet if this is the correct text:

IGUR III 1245 - PHI Greek Inscriptions

D(is) Cerelliae Fortunatae con❦iugi carissimae cum qua M(anibus) v(ixi) ∙ ann(is) ∙ XL ∙ s(ine) u(lla) q(uerella)

M(arcus) ∙ Antonius ∙ Encolpus ∙ fecit ∙ sibi ∙ et ∙ Antonio ∙ Athenaeo

liberto ∙ suo ∙ karissimo ∙ et ∙ libertis ∙ libertabusque ∙ eorum ∙

et ∙ posteris ∙ excepto ∙ M(arco) ∙ Antonio ∙ Athenione ∙ quem ∙ veto ∙

in ∙ eo ∙ monimento ∙ aditum ∙ habere ∙ neque ∙ iter ∙ ambitum ∙

introitum ∙ ullum ∙ in eo ∙ habere ∙ neque ∙ sepulturae ∙ causa ∙

reliquias ∙ eius ∙ posterorumque ∙ eius ∙ inferri ∙ quod ∙ si quis ∙ ad-

versus ∙ hoc ∙ quis ∙ fecerit ∙ tunc ∙ is ∙ qui ∙ fecerit ∙ poenae ∙ nomine ∙

pontificibus ∙ aut ∙ antescolaris ∙ virginum ∙ (sestertium) ∙ L ∙ m(ilia) ∙ n(ummum) ∙ inferre ∙ de-

bebit ∙ ideo ∙ quia ∙ me ∙ pos ∙ multas ∙ iniurias ∙ parentem ∙ sibi ∙ amnegaverit ∙

et ∙ A(ulo) ∙ Lelio ∙ Apeliti ∙ clienti ∙ karissimo ∙ quem ∙ boluerit ∙ do<n>ationis ∙ causa ∙ sarcofa-

gum ∙ eligat ∙ sibi ∙ opter ∙ quod ∙ in tam ma<g>na ∙ clade ∙ non ∙ me ∙ reliquerit ∙ cuius ∙ beneficia ∙ abeo

This is the text to which it would be interesting to find the Latin, and to scrutinize exactly what he says - including what I would say is probably a good sense of humor!

Quote from Pacatus

Are there (in the classical Epicurean corpus) any similar affirmative statements on: 1) where reasonably possible, to prevent or stop wrongful harm from being done to another (particularly someone outside our immediate friendship circle); and 2) to foster social conditions that are conducive to maximizing the possibility for enjoyment/pleasure by most people (including those that may be on the socioeconomic margins)?

Quote from Pacatus

Note: in case 1) above, the perpetrator of harm would be someone who has not embraced the Epicurean social compact.

I think Joshua's answer hits the high point of quoting the statement from Diogenes of Oinoanda.

I also think that Pacatus you are correct here:

Quote from Pacatus

Of course, one can strive to do both without drawing on any school’s (or religion’s) ethical philosophy – e.g., as a matter of personal conscience.

...because rather than "personal conscience" I think you can substitute "pleasure." It gives a lot of people "pleasure' to want to make life better for "others in general" - even where you don't have direct relationships with those others.

But as to the general drift of your question as to whether there is anything in Epicurus that would provide some kind of general instruction analogous to a "great commission" to do so, I don't think such a thing would exist because that would come too close to a sort of "idealism" that would be inconsistent with much of the rest of the philosophy. But I think here is plenty of reason for thinking the it enhances your own happiness by making life better for others.

And like everything else there is probably a warning needed about making such a goal an end in itself. The general rule remains that nothing is "good in itself" other than pleasure, and pleasure isn't just out there floating in the air, so it seems to me that everything ultimately has to be tied to the question of whether the action will result in specific improvements in pleasure for specific people who are in some kind of relationship of degree of friendship (or at least not an enemy).

Directing your attention to footnote 57 of the below clip (rather than to the highlighted text) contains some interesting and specifically Epicurean text referring to Marcus Encolpus' friends and his position on key Epicurean issues.

It would be interesting to track down the full Latin and maybe find a photo.

This comes from the post here: Names Applied to the Epicureans by Themselves Or Others

Episode 181 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available!

NOTE:  If you are a new member who has not previously attended a meeting, click here for background information on how to attend and obtain the Zoom link.

Here are our topics for this week:

1 - The Vatican Sayings:

VS12. The just man is most free from disturbance, while the unjust is full of the utmost disturbance. ^[5]

VS13. Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.

2 - Our Special Topic

Aside from general guidance to follow pleasure and avoid pain, is there anything in Epicurean philosophy that tells a particular person what particular pleasure to choose or pain to avoid at any particular time. In other words, this is a variation of the old question: "Is one pleasure or activity in itself 'better' than another?" Is it possible to come up with a coherent analysis of how we would recommend a particular person at a particular time to proceed? Is all we can say is "It's contextual and up to you!" Or is there more for which we can find justification in the Epicurean texts?

Attendees should also plan to be sure they are on Kalosyni's conversation list. If you are not already on that and want the Zoom link so you can attend, please message Kalosyni or any other moderator.

Quote from Don

Are you calling me a fundamentalist??

If the ancient Epicureans can praisingly and productively call entities who are neither supernatural nor omniscient nor omnipotent (and probably not inherently deathless either) "gods" -

and if the ancient Epicureans can call the normal and natural and pain-free [state of] functioning of the mind and body "pleasure" -

and if the ancient Epicureans can call "virtue" whatever tools lead us to happy living -

then I can easily productively and praisingly call you a "fundamentalist," in the best sense of the word!

Quote from Don

The translations should really be something like: One must laugh and - at the same time - pursue the love wisdom, administer the rest of one's household affairs,...

If you start detecting patterns on who seems to follow your literalist interpretations most regularly, please be sure to say so.

Thanks for your thoughts, Blank_emu!

To some extent the issue is privacy, but maybe to an equal extent the issue is avoiding be "deplatformed" or having your existing message base deleted at the whim of someone or some entity that decides it doesn't like you.

I don't see us as a target of that kind of problem anytime soon, but that doesn't mean that having things as best as possible under one's own control isn't desirable.

This is definitely a changing field and it looks like you stay on top of it so please update as you think helpful.

As a note while editing this week's podcast, in the first ten minutes Don gives and excellent quote from Aristotle about how one becomes just by doing such things. My attention was distracted until the middle and by the time I realized what a good quote it was I was no longer sure where it came from, and I didn't follow up on it like I should have - it's an excellent example of how circular the standard non-Epicurean view of virtue really is.

Don said it was from Nichomachean ethics so I hope we can get a direct cite for the show notes.

The individual subforums for the Vatican Sayings have been sitting mostly unused for eight years, and they have come close to be deleted several times since it takes time to scroll through 70+ forums. But that was before we met Don and his badger-like investigations into the Greek texts, so I am happy to say that I am in the process of making sure every one is "unlocked" so the task of Norman DeWitt - and his protege Don Boozer, who both seek "less emended" texts - can continue!

All kidding aside thank you Don for all your work!

The "Vatican List" of Sayings

Unlocking and moving this now!!!

(Just set up this thread for Don's latest post)

Quote from Don

I would take that that friendship is so important, one can barely conceive of its importance.

A good caution for those who:

1 - Tend to be overly introverted (a common trait here including me!)

2 - Think that Epicurus had nothing to say about social organization ("politics").

Admin Note:

Because I am a fast learner (sarcasm) it has taken me only eight years to discover that the forum software allows footnoting in "Lexicon" entries, but not in normal pages or posts. I am therefore converting the master copies of our Principal Doctrines and Vatican Sayings to Lexicon entries, and the top menu (under texts) now takes you to those locations. No doubt there are other links here on the forum to the existing pages, so I will leave the old ones in place (at least for a while) while we convert links.

I will substitute this version of VS78 for the ones we are discussing in the master list, and also in our separate forum for VS78, and I will move this thread to that location if it is not already there. [Oops it is there - good planning by Onenski!]

Thanks to Onenski again for this observation - had we had it last night we might have further extended the discussion on how this fits with "Are we living like the gods yet?"

For example as to the difference between wisdom and friendship, I can see how wisdom is "understandable" (goes with the territory) but I don't always understand my friends!

Said another way, with friends I consider the pleasure that comes from having friends to be "godlike" even though I don't always understand them!

Quote from Don

Well, would you look at that! It was hiding in DeWitt (p. 226) all along!

Looks like Don and DeWitt share some similar goals!

What do you think Don?

If anyone tracks this reference to Hartel down please let us know. Thanks Onenski! To me that actually would make more sense. Seeing a contrast between moral and immortal is natural, but calling wisdom "mortal" does seem a little hard to follow the meaning.