Posts by Cassius

Welcome! Never heard of Lasch-Quinn so I will have to take a look at that. Thanks for responding to youe welcome message!

Welcome CLSB !

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Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Sounds like "Honey from Hymettus" is Thyme:

Thyme Honey - Honey Traveler

Wild Thyme (T. Capitatus) Thyme honey is produced from many species of Thyme (Thymus spp.). But of the 350 different species or so, the notable honey producing…

www.honeytraveler.com

Known historically as Hymettus Honey from Attica near Mt. Hymettus Greece and Hyblaean Honey from the Iblei (Hyblaean) Mountains of Sicily, it is still produced in both countries today. Sardinia & Corsica produce a unique version of honey from caraway thyme. Found in many countries around the Mediterranean (Southern Europe, Malta, Croatia, N. Africa), thyme has spread to similar climes around the world, including the northeastern United States Berkshire and Catskill mountains (T. Serpyllum) and New Zealand.

Garden Thyme (T. Vulgaris)

Mother-of-Thyme (T. Serpyllum)

Renowned for its aroma and flavor, it is produced between the second half of June and the first half of July. The color of Thyme honey is light amber to amber when liquid, beige to brown when it is crystallized. It is a very strong, intensely aromatic honey with resinous, herbal, savory flavors; fresh and reminiscent of tropical fruits, dates and white pepper. The taste is persistent, lingering in the mouth. Crystallizes spontaneously in a short time into medium or fine grains.

Its intense and complex aroma has been described as; floral, spicy, dried flowers, magnolia flowers, cedar, herbs, flowers, rubbed, clove, burnt plastic, pencil drawing, mulled wine, and Marsala. The flavor has been described as: salty, thymol, pharmacy, plastic, pencil, dates and pepper.

Roman author, naturalist and philosopher, Pliny the Elder, wrote in his Naturalis Historia published circa AD 77-79. “…The honei which commeth of Thyme, is held to bee the best and most profitable: in color like gold, in taste right pleasant…”

Topics for this week:

• Topics To Be Sure To Include
  • The fragment about "They Have Nothing To Say About Pleasure"
    • https://www.npr.org/2024/02/10/123…-some-help-from
    • LUKE FARRITOR: (Reading) They have nothing to say about pleasure, either in general or in the particular, when it is a question of definition.
  • Cicero argues that we should "abandon pleasure to the beasts'
  • This time he says that you Epicureans like to use them as witnesses, but you don't see that the beasts themselves often do many things for reasons other than pleasure. They are kind to their young, they "rejoice" in exploring, they meet together like houses of burgessses, they have affection for each other, they have knowledge, they have memory, they have regrets - Cicero says that these are all - like human virtues - unconnected with pleasure! And you are trying to tell me that the beasts can be virtuous without pleasure but humans cannot?
  • And even beyond the beasts, don't men have peculiar gifts from nature to enable them to look beyond pleasure?
  • If Epicurus is right, we are far inferior to the beasts, but Cicero can't believe that the supreme good is the same for animals and man.
  • Why pursue the virtues if their only end is pleasure? That's like Xerxes invading Greece because he wanted some Honey from Hymettus! Your saying that the goal is pleasure is liking thinking that the wise man who has so many endowments engages them for the sake of a drop of honey!
  • We are born to a loftier destiny! That's proved by the power of the mind to remember the past, to predict the future to govern our passions, to use justice, and to disregard pain and death for the sake of our goals. Even the body prefers strength and health and beauty rather than pleasure!

  • Our wise men say that we are like gods, but you say that the goal of life in a state of continual sensory stimulation, but who deserving of the name of man would choose to live even a day like that?

    
    

Regulars to the forum are often looking for the place to find the latest agenda item for the Wednesday Zoom Sessions. The two best places to do that are (1) clicking on the calendar for the specific day, or now (2) using the "Home" dropdown menu where you will see a new item, next to the Lucretius Today podcast, pointing to the forum where agendas are kept.

Now THAT makes a lot of sense! I may have overlooked it but I didn''t see that mentioned in the original article but if that's the pattern then things definitely fall into place.

Quote from Twentier

"Live unknown."

Nevertheless, good to hear from you Twentier!

The caption to this says: A fresco discovered in a banquet hall in the ancient Italian city of Pompeii depicts the Greek god Apollo attempting to seduce the priestess Cassandra

I wonder sometimes how much these descriptions can be trusted . It would be interesting to know how they come up with these conclusions.

Haven't had time to absorb this yet but looks interesting:

Stunning new Roman frescoes uncovered at Pompeii, the ancient Italian city frozen in time by a volcano

Experts say the frescoes on the walls of an ancient banquet hall in Pompeii are among the finest ever found in the city destroyed by a volcano almost 2,000…

www.cbsnews.com

Thanks to Joshua for these links!

Epicurus citations from the Suda;

https://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/sol/sol-entries/epsilon/2404

https://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/sol/sol-entries/epsilon/2405

https://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/sol/sol-entries/epsilon/2406

https://www.cs.uky.edu/~raphael/sol/sol-entries/epsilon/2407

Let's remember to discuss this quote in this episode:

Post

RE: Benefits of Memorizing and Remembering Specific Epicurean Verse

[…]

Did you manage to discuss the line?

Titus

April 9, 2024 at 4:17 PM

Welcome to Episode 223 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

Last week when Joshua was away we discussed with Don some of the most important high-level conclusions we can learn about Epicurus based on Cicero's attacks against it. We will continue to apply those as we proceed to the end of Book two, but when we were last in Cicero's text we were dealing with Cicero's claim that the Epicurean happy man model will not only not be constantly happy, because he will sometimes be wretched; but that Epicurean philosophy can never prove its point so long as it connects everything with pleasure and pain. This week we pick up with Cicero saying that as a result, Epicureans like Torquatus should "abandon pleasure to the beasts."

Follow along with us here: Cicero's On Ends - Complete Reid Edition. Check any typos or other questions against the original PDF which can be found here.

XXXIII ... Hence, Torquatus, we must discover some other form of the highest good for man; let us abandon pleasure to the beasts, whom you are accustomed to summon as witnesses about the supreme good. What if even beasts very often, under the guidance of the peculiar constitution of each, shew some of them kindness, even at the cost of toil, so that when they bear and rear their young it is very patent that they aim at something different from pleasure? Others again, rejoice in wanderings and in journeys; others in their assemblages imitate in a certain way the meetings of burgesses; in some kinds of birds we see certain signs of affection, as well as knowledge and memory; in many also we see regrets; shall we admit then that in beasts there are certain shadows of human virtues, unconnected with pleasure, while in men them- selves virtue cannot exist unless with a view-to pleasure? And shall we say that man, who far excels all other creatures, has received no peculiar gifts from nature?

XXXIV. We in fact, if everything depends upon pleasure, are very far inferior to the beasts, for whom the earth unbidden, without toil of theirs, pours forth from her breast varied and copious food, while we with difficulty or hardly even with difficulty supply ourselves with ours, winning it by heavy toil. Yet I cannot on any account believe that the supreme good is the same for animals and for man. Pray what use is there in such elaborate preparations for acquiring the best accomplishments, or in such a crowd of the most noble occupations, or in such a train of virtues, if all these things are sought after for no other end but that of pleasure? Just as, supposing Xerxes, with his vast fleets and vast forces of cavalry and infantry, after bridging the Hellespont and piercing Athos, after marching over seas, and sailing over the land, then, when he had attacked Greece with such vehemence, had been asked by some one about the reason for such vast forces and so great a war, and had answered that he wanted to carry off some honey from Hymettus, surely such enormous exertions would have seemed purposeless; so precisely if we say that the wise man, endowed and equipped with the most numerous and important accomplishments and excellences, not traversing seas on foot, like the king, or mountains with fleets, but embracing in his thoughts all the heaven, and the whole earth with the entire sea, is in search of pleasure, then we shall be in effect saying that these vast efforts are for the sake of a drop of honey.

Believe me, Torquatus, we are born to a loftier and grander destiny; and this is proved not merely by the endowments of our minds, which possess power to recollect countless experiences (in your case power unlimited) and an insight into the future not far removed from prophecy, and honor the governor of passion, and justice the loyal guardian of human fellowship, and a staunch and unwavering disregard of pain and death when there are toils to be endured or dangers to be faced - well, these are the endowments of our minds; I beg you now also to think even of our limbs and our senses, which will appear to you, like the other divisions of our body, not merely to accompany the virtues, but even to do them service. Now if in the body itself there are many things to be preferred to pleasure, strength for example, health, swiftness, beauty, what I ask do you suppose is the case with our minds? Those most learned men of old thought that mind contained a certain heavenly and godlike element. But if pleasure were equivalent to the supreme good, as you assert, it would be an enviable thing to live day and night without intermission in a state of extreme pleasure, all the senses being agitated by, and so to Say, steeped in sweetness of every kind. Now who is there deserving the name of man, that would choose to continue for one whole day in pleasure of such a kind?

The Cyrenaics I admit are not averse to it; your friends treat these matters with greater decency; they perhaps with greater consistency. But let us survey in our thoughts not these very important arts, lacking which some men were called inert by our ancestors; what I ask is whether you suppose, I do not say Homer, Archilochus, or Pindar, but Phidias, Polyclitus, or Zeuxis, to have regulated their arts by pleasure. Will then an artist aim higher in order to secure beauty of form than a preeminent citizen in the hope to achieve beauty of action? Now what other reason is there for so serious a misconception, spread far and wide as it is, but that the philosopher who pronounces pleasure to be the supreme good takes counsel, not with that part of his mind in which thought and reflection reside, but with his passions, that is to say, with the most frivolous part of his soul? If gods exist, as even your school supposes, I ask you how they can be happy, when they cannot realize pleasure with their bodily faculties, or if they are happy without that kind of pleasure, why you refuse to allow that wise man can have similar intellectual enjoyment?

No! We forgot! But I will put it in line for this next episode!

Lucretius Today Podcast Episode 222 - "Revisiting The Relationship Between Happiness And Pleasure" Is Now Available -

Thanks to Don for standing in for Joshua in our recording of podcast 222. I think it went well and I will work to get it posted as soon as possible.

From Facebook in Response to Anthony Adams

Elli Pensa

Admin

Top Contributor

Cicero all of his life was following his teacher Platos' first principles who said that a) A perfect being (god) was the demiurge who knew "geometry", felt lonely and one day decided to create the one and only this world of ours that is a reflection of his perfect world b) There is an idea of an absolute justice that exists in the god's world and it is reflected in the world of ours, and the more we will try to implement that absolute justice, in our world, so much more we become virtuous men c) Senses and feelings are not criteria of truth to judge all the things around since only the mind and the soul of that perfect being (god) knows the absolute truth and has his representatives that give all the oracles in Delphi and Asclepiia c) Pleasure is not a good, because it has no limits and can't be never fullfilled so, it has to be thrown in the fifth and the last category d) Our soul is immortal and with reincarnation we will born again in a new body with a mind and soul that have “oblivion”, but in the meantime we will remember again – with the teachings in Plato’s Academy - some of the ideas-virtues - of our past lives. And alas if your soul will be reincarnating again in the body of a woman. It would be better to be reincarnating again in the body of a dog "speaking with woof – woof”!

Thus, if you would follow Plato’s' first principles and connected them with ethics you fall into the trap of becoming, in the end, a miserable stoic who measures all the things in the basis of virtue, duty, and apathy. And when we say virtue, duty and apathy means to not measure all the things with senses and feelings and for this you are doubting continuously for any established Knowledge, and of course the most important is to not accept "the atoms and the void" by Democritus and Epicurus. Thus, with these three cores of the Stoa - that is the miserable branch of the teachings by Plato - with the virtue, duty and apathy in the end, you will accept easily your fate-destiny of a violent and dishonorable death same as Socrates, Seneca and Cicero and with this death you become a martyr and a hero… and hooray, for that “great” man! Because for the evolution of our species there must be and some “useful idiots” that they should always be glorified. Since the “posthumus reputation” is a "great pleasure" for the dead martyr. Since, the dead have "feelings" and "feel the pleasure" of their deeds as they would be alive!

We are talking about for so much of an ambiguity and empty-vague ideas, and as Epicurus said: these are all the false opinions that is the source of most of the turmoil that seizes upon the souls-minds of men!

From Facebook:

Anthony Adams

Loved this podcast! It seems that Cicero is intent on denying that the good can be derived from the duality that man is made of, mind and body. He is intent on extolling only virtues and believes they can only come from a mind that is virtuous in and of its self. One would have to be born with a virtuous mind as any experience of pain or pleasure in the body is to be discounted. This is not in accordance with nature and reality.

I wonder if one could flip Cicero’s argument that since we Epicureans believe in bodily pleasure as a good we cannot be serious about the power of mental pleasure…since we say all pleasure has root in/ or is impossible without bodily or sensory pleasure. One could ask what is the virtue of temperance with out the body? Can the mind be temperate without the body sensing pain or pleasure? Can one have courage without a body? How can one have courage if there is no fear of bodily harm to overcome. How about Justice? With no bodily punishment or reward how is justice dealt out, by words of praise or condemnation?Tongues and ears are required for that. So Cicero you do not believe virtue is an end in and of itself as you have to admit that the body and its sense of pain and pleasure is needed in order to determine what is virtuous.

It seems that Cicero’s ideal of virtue for virtues sake can only exist in a mind without a body or a body without sensation…and all observable nature indicates to us that this is an absurd idea.

Quote from Titus

"They have nothing to say about pleasure."

We might have to steal that line and feature it our our podcast tomorrow, which we are recording with Don ! thanks for the reminder!

Thanks for that comment @BraydonKing and welcome to the forum! There's a new Welcome thread posted for you...please take a moment to introduce yourself. (You can find that thread here).

I would think you can quickly summarize the precise answers to all those questions in no more than twenty minutes at most!