Welcome Max Duboff

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    Quote from Max DuBoff

    This generally seems right, but what it misses is that the absence of pain is a pleasure according to Epicurus. So it's pleasure vs. ataraxia for Epicurus; it's a question of how ataraxia fits into the landscape of pleasures.

    Since I am among the leaders in typos I get used to recognizing them. Probably this was to be "So it's NOT pleasures vs ataraxia....?

    Quote from Max DuBoff

    What I do claim is that, for Epicurus, only some pleasures (katastematic ones) determine whether a life is blessed--and that's because the absence of pain is the only pleasure that can be complete.

    Yes, the "only some pleasures (katestmetic ones) determine whether a life is blessed" is where we will continue to strongly disagree.

    Quote from Max DuBoff

    To be clear, though, I think Epicurus absolutely endorsed the claim that a good (i.e., blessed) life is a perfect/complete one. But that was a choice. And it's a choice that fits uncomfortably with hedonism. Personally, I'm very convinced that Epicurus was right about hedonism and right that the absence of pain is a pleasure. I'm less convinced he was right that a blessed life is a perfect/complete life.

    Max in my case I like to build up from the earlier premises to the higher ones, so before we even get to the implications of PD3 and PD4 there is PD1 and PD2. Where do you land there? Do you agree or disagree with Epicurus that there are no supernatural gods, that gods do not reward friends and punish enemies, and that there is no existence after death? In my case, it is because I strongly agree with him on those first two doctrines that I find it inconceivable that - despite all his other statements about active pleasures - he would have held katastematic pleasures to be the only ones that contribute to a blessed life, as you are claiming.

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    Quote from Max DuBoff

    I might disagree about exactly how much ataraxia is under our control--it's quite unclear, I'd say. Clearly there are some sources saying we can have it under many different circumstances; but PD 4 seems to imply that fatal pains might be pretty rough for a short time, and there's the evidence in DL 10 that not all circumstances can lead to a good life.

    Ah, this might be a good way to get at why or how we might have a different perspective on this. My understanding of our control over our own ataraxia stems from my view of tranquility/ataraxia being (possibly) less expansive than you.

    I maintain that ataraxia is best understood specifically as the state of mind engendered by the eradication of false/empty beliefs and the fears and anxiety they produce. Once those beliefs are totally eradicated from our minds, pulled up by the roots, they don't come back and the tranquility - literally the undisturbed state - is solid. The eradication of those fears and anxieties is final IF we've really understood and internalized at the gut level, asleep and awake, the understanding that the gods present no reason for fear, that death is nothing to us, that pleasure is the goal and should be the North Star by which we steer our little boat. Pleasure writ large as Epicurus defined it, which means we undergo some pain if we know there's pleasure on the other side of the pain.

    If I remember, you include ALL fears and anxieties within ataraxia; which MAY be the case if it is understood that there is no reason for fear and anxiety IF we steer our boat by the goal of nature, which is pleasure. My understanding is that if one defines ataraxia/tranquility to be encompassing of every fear and anxiety, it has to be understood in that way.

    I go back to Metrodorus, Fragment 5: "Metrodorus, in his book On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects, says: 'What else is the good of the soul/mind/psykhe but the sound state of the flesh (τὸ σαρκὸς εὐσταθὲς κατάστημα), and the sure hope of its continuance?'" I take this to mean the entire body - body & mind - taken as a whole, the Good of the Mind is inextricably linked with the stable state of the body

    PD4 does say that fatal pain is bad, but fatal physical pain is short (per Epicurus' writings) and we know from his example that eudaimonia is still possible under pain.

    I'm curious to explore what you refer to when you mention "not all circumstances can lead to a good life." I certainly don't disagree, especially if you're referring to chasing after empty desires. We're not guaranteed a good life if we persist in empty desires, and we're not guaranteed a completely pain free life if we're mortal.

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