What Would Epicurus Say To Someone Who Said To Him That The Value of Being Dead and Being Alive Are Equal?

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    Stated another way, such a person might say:

    1. There is nothing preferable about being alive over being dead.
    2. The status of being dead and being alive are essentially equal.
    3. Since we are going to be "dead" or "not alive" for a lot more time than we will be "alive," it is important for us to see being dead as not in any way less preferable than being alive.
    4. Since Epicurus says that there is no harm in death to us, it should not matter to us whether we are alive or dead.

    How would Epicurus react to this point of view? This is not just an off-the-wall hypothetical - I think we essentially this attitude held sometimes in the most unexpected places.

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    FYI

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    I don't recall whether I got to watch that full debate last time but I'll get to it this time. Thankfully Jordan Peterson seems to be fading away. Hopefully we can express some of the issues in this thread for those who don't watch the video or just want to grapple with this directly.

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    I'm not trying to seed this just to start conversation but I can predict who among us might have some interest in this topic so I am going to go ahead and prod:

    Pacatus ? Patrikios ? DaveT ?

    These are just three that come to mind, but I think this is a basic question that most all of us need to be prepared to answer (if we're not already).

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    Quote from Todd

    Such a person must be alive in order to say that, thus demonstrating their preference for being alive, and contradicting their claim.

    Another excellent use of self-contradiction, showing that they are either not a consistent thinker or being intentionally misleading.

    Presuming they are more on the "not consistent thinker" edge of the range, for reasons that we might choose to find sympathetic (so we continue to talk to them!) what else can be said to help them see that their position is damaging?

    Or is this position so ingrained in the people who would ask the question in the first place that little help is possible?

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    Quote from Cassius

    Presuming they are more on the "not consistent thinker" edge of the range, for reasons that we might choose to find sympathetic (so we continue to talk to them!) what else can be said to help them see that their position is damaging?

    It is quite possible to arrive at this conclusion without any logical inconsistencies. For example, if you believe your telos to be removal of pain, then it would be perfectly consistent to see death as a shortcut to that end. In that case, death would not be merely a matter of indifference, but should actually be preferred over life, which will inevitably involve pain at times. The only inconsistency would be a failure to act on that conclusion.

    Since I would not want to convince someone that suicide is their only logical choice...I think the best approach would be to understand why they have this belief in the first place (which you have not stipulated) and approach it from there, rather than attacking the life-vs-death logic directly.

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    Quote from Todd

    It is quite possible to arrive at this conclusion without any logical inconsistencies.

    I think you are right. Logic can be used in support of the idea that life is better than death, but it can also be used for the reverse. Ultimately it is not logic but FEELING which is the key element.

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    Quote from Cassius

    Or is this position so ingrained in the people who would ask the question in the first place that little help is possible?

    It's important to understand your objective.

    In this kind of debate, you are often not really trying to convince the person you're arguing with. You are rather trying to convince others who are (or will be) observing the debate.

    And in that case, I think the performative contradiction argument is a powerful one.

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    Quote from Cassius

    Ultimately it is not logic but FEELING which is the key element.

    Yes, in a sense...but maybe the sense in which I see it is not the sense in which you meant it...

    The desire to pursue pleasure (and thus life) is so deeply embedded in the human psyche, that even people who have convinced themselves that they should pursue something else, or that life isn't really that important, nevertheless cling to it tenaciously, and live with the contradiction.

    (Seems like an argument for psychological hedonism! ^^)

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    Quote from Cassius

    I'm not trying to seed this just to start conversation but I can predict who among us might have some interest in this topic so I am going to go ahead and prod:

    Pacatus ? Patrikios ? DaveT ?

    These are just three that come to mind, but I think this is a basic question that most all of us need to be prepared to answer (if we're not already).

    Nice try Cassius but NO. I listened to part of the "debate" and came away with a yawn. I checked out the Wiki pages of both men, too and decided they both prove why many Hellenist philosophers denigrated rhetoricians :). It looked like they were performing to their own followers.

    Due respect to anyone taking the question seriously but to me it is not a serious question when as a general proposition. Of course life!

    Dave Tamanini

    Harrisburg, PA, USA

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    Quote from Todd

    I think the best approach would be to understand why they have this belief in the first place (which you have not stipulated) and approach it from there, rather than attacking the life-vs-death logic directly.

    This question could come up when considering whether to have children or to not have children. If the state of living is more valuable on a philosophical level, then you might be pressured to have children because of that. But if "life" vs "not life" on a philosophical level are equal, then it would be equally acceptable to choose not to have children.

    From the Letter to Menoeceus, it seems to me that the philosophical attitude regarding the value of life vs death are equal:

    [126] "But the many at one moment shun death as the greatest of evils, at another (yearn for it) as a respite from the (evils) in life. (But the wise man neither seeks to escape life) nor fears the cessation of life, for neither does life offend him nor does the absence of life seem to be any evil."

    And, if you are already alive, then the idea is to not shun this life.

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    Quote from Todd

    nevertheless cling to it tenaciously, and live with the contradiction.

    (Seems like an argument for psychological hedonism! ^^ )

    But sadiy and tragically, some don't, and they carry out what Lucretius mentioned some do .... which is why i don't accept the persuasiveness of PH -- but let's not get sidetracked on that.

    Quote from DaveT

    Nice try Cassius but NO. I listened to part of the "debate" and came away with a yawn.

    I'm glad you made that comment because I was not suggesting that people needed to watch that video to deal with this question. I thank Don for posting the link but I haven't been able to stomach Jordan Peterson myself enough to watch it.

    I'm interested in the general commentary here. I presumed everyone would say "of course life!" but I'm not so sure any more that I should presume that.

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