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Epicurus says we can "consciously choose to pursue pain"
The issue is pursuing pain as a means to greater pleasure vs pursuing pain as the telos.
I don't think there can be any disagreement that we can and do pursue pain as a means.
I'm not sure what Epicurus thought, but I think I agree with Don that no one actually pursues pain as their ultimate end. In all cases I believe it can be shown to be pleasure that is actually being pursued, no matter how misguided the means chosen.
Epicurus would say, I believe, they are trying to pursue their own path to pleasure, it feels right to them in the moment.
That would be what I understand is meant by "psychological hedonism," but what statement of Epicurus would you cite to support your belief that he would say that?
what statement of Epicurus would you cite to support your belief that he would say that?
Cicero seems to interpret the Epicureans as saying that (FWIW):
For no one either despises, or hates, or avoids pleasure itself merely because it is pleasure, but because great pains overtake those men who do not understand how to pursue pleasure in a reasonable manner. Nor is there any one who loves, or pursues, or wishes to acquire pain because it is pain, but because sometimes such occasions arise that a man attains to some great pleasure through labour and pain. For, to descend to trifles, who of us ever undertakes any laborious exertion of body except in order to gain some advantage by so doing?
Yes I was thinking of exactly that from Torquatus is what I would cite myself. But I am not at all sure that is what is meant.
Todd what is your view on the psychological hedonism question? My own views are not set in stone on this.
Epicurus would say, I believe, they are trying to pursue their own path to pleasure, it feels right to them in the moment.
That would be what I understand is meant by "psychological hedonism," but what statement of Epicurus would you cite to support your belief that he would say that?
I would have to dig in, but my first gut response is him stating pleasure is the telos, the goal, the summum bonum, the "that" to which everything points in the end. Not sometimes. Not should. Not in certain circumstances. You dig and question someone's decisions and actions long enough, it ends up to "I thought it would give me pleasure" it some variation on that.
Todd what is your view on the psychological hedonism question?
If you're asking what I personally believe, then I agree with psychological hedonism.
To avoid misunderstanding, I would add that many (most?) people don't really pursue pleasure in a conscious way. They tell themselves they are pursuing something more "noble" or altruistic. Some honestly believe that, others just lying. But if you keep asking "why are you doing that?" enough times, eventually the honest answer will have to be some variation of, "I expect it to give me pleasure". There really is no other possibility that I can see.
If you are asking what I think Epicurus believed, I can't recall anywhere that he said this explicitly. But I think it fits - I would expect him to agree if we could ask him.
It was probably a more relevant argument once the Stoics were on the scene.
will have to be some variation of, "I expect it to give me pleasure".
What about those who would argue til they are blue in the face that that do what they do "Because they believe it's the right thing to do, regardless of whether it gives me pleasure or not, and I know that often it won't."
will have to be some variation of, "I expect it to give me pleasure".
What about those who would argue til they are blue in the face that that do what they do "Because they believe it's the right thing to do, regardless of whether it gives me pleasure or not, and I know that often it won't."
I would say they're lying to themselves because they despise the idea of pleasure.
