PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004)

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

As I've said ad nauseum in the past, the Principal Doctrines were not originally verified.

Far be it for me to question anyone's typing but perhaps you meant a word other than "verified"?

Thanks! Fixed.

Don Regarding the formating of the Principal Doctrines, I just looked that up and found this (AI Google):

Modern translators and classical scholars determine where one doctrine ends and the next begins by evaluating four primary lines of evidence: grammatical shifts, thematic unity, historical manuscript markers, and 19th-century precedent. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Because ancient Greek text lacked clear punctuation and numbering, separating the continuous script into 40 distinct Kyriai Doxai relies on specific linguistic and contextual clues: [1, 2, 3]

1. Grammatical Transitions and Connecting Particles

Ancient Greek relies heavily on transitional particles to indicate a shift in thought. Translators watch for specific word cues that naturally reset a sentence: [1]

• The Particle De (δὲ): Often meaning "but" or "and," this frequently signals the start of a fresh, separate statement.
• The Particle Gar (γάρ): Meaning "for" or "because," this indicates a clause is an explanation of the previous sentence, meaning it belongs within the same doctrine rather than starting a new one.
• Independent Clauses: Sentences that begin with a strong, self-contained subject and verb (such as "Death is..." or "Justice is...") usually mark the boundaries of a new maxim. [1, 2, 3, 4]

2. Micro-Spaces and Scribal Punctuation

While the manuscripts do not contain numbers, medieval scribes did leave subtle visual hints while copying the text: [1, 2]

• Paragraphoi: Scribes frequently drew small horizontal strokes or dashes (paragraphoi) in the margins to note a change in speaker or statement.
• High Dots (Ektheis): Scribes used ink dots placed high above the text baseline like a modern period to signal a complete thought.
• Spacial Gaps: In manuscripts like the Codex Borbonicus, a tiny physical gap or blank ink space was left between certain words to indicate where one logical unit of text ended. [1, 2]

3. Structural and Thematic Shifts

Translators look at the internal logic of the philosophy to find natural conceptual boundaries: [1, 2]

• Thematic Clusters: Epicurus often grouped ideas together. Doctrines 1 through 4 handle divine fear, death, pleasure, and pain (the Tetrapharmakos). A translator knows a doctrine has ended when the text shifts completely from one of these core topics to an entirely new one, like social status (Doctrine 6) or natural science (Doctrine 11).
• Aphoristic Length: The Kyriai Doxai were specifically designed as short, punchy summaries meant to be easily memorized by followers. If a block of text grows too dense or covers multiple unrelated insights, it is a strong indicator that it contains more than one individual doctrine. [1, 2, 3, 4]

I fully realize that this is going to come off as harsh, but I was off work today with sinus issues, sneezes, aches, and coughs and maybe my inhibitions are a little less than usual. Please take that as context, but with that said...

I'm sorry, but this is a prime example of the reason I despise AI summaries. It looks all authoritative with words like aphoristic length and presented in a bulleted list, but it's all an LLM predicting what word comes next and extruding it out for human consumption.

The "references" include posts I've made on this very forum that don't really say what the AI summary is trying to make them say: Presenting the Principal Doctrines in Narrative Form

The references also include papers/articles on Bible versification, which is not exactly a direct comparison. And Bible verses are also notorious for breaking across chapter lines or breaking up a thought:

https://thebiblebistro.com/episode/breaking-bad-paragraphs/

Purpose: Chapters and verses were added to make referencing easier (e.g., John 3:16), but they can sometimes disrupt the text’s flow.

The AI summary also makes mention of the 40 doctrines, and I've personally found (at my referenced post) both 40 and earlier 44 "doctrines" that break in very different places:

Post

RE: Presenting the Principal Doctrines in Narrative Form

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb…ge/465/mode/1up

German, 1806, with 44 Principal Doctrines ?

Don

June 21, 2023 at 8:22 PM

Post

RE: Presenting the Principal Doctrines in Narrative Form

Okay, this was VERY interesting. I used the 1739 Greek with Latin translation to compare with the text at Perseus Digital Library:

1739: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/nnc1.0021…7768674761-1400

Perseus Greek (DL, Book 10): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…0%3Achapter%3D1

Perseus English (DL, Book 10): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…0%3Achapter%3D1

I used the Greek text to compare with each other since 1739 had 44 Principal Doctrines and Perseus (i.e., Hicks, 1972) had the…

Don

June 22, 2023 at 12:06 AM

So, it's a game of "Spot the Doctrine" with different results with, in my opinion, neither being right or wrong. It's overlaid on the text.

I can see Epicurus or whoever wrote Kyriai Doxai writing in smaller digestible chunks for easier memorization. I gladly admit that there are short sections that are apparent when reading the topics covered, but there is nothing to the best of my knowledge that confirms there are meant to be 40 separate doctrines in the book.

In my further opinion, reading them in conversation with each other within a particular topic rather than in isolation, provides additional context leading to a fuller picture of what's being conveyed. Trying to puzzle out things like "What does this Principal Doctrine mean?" is fraught with unnecessary difficulty if only one reads a few before or a few after or both.

PS. I need to add that I remain open to research on where the "breaks" happen to be in Principal Doctrines. But the arbitrary 40 isn't really helpful in that quest in my opinion.

I don't think that's overly harsh. Of course when the Terminators take over they may not agree

This is like living through the industrial revolution and radio and tv and internet all in one - or more.

The points it picked up from you are good for it to pick up so the world is better that you wrote them.

I have no idea where all this leads. In the meantime I guess we do the best we can.

Quote from Cassius

Of course when the Terminators take over they may not agree