Welcome to Episode 308 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
This week we continue covering Cicero's "Tusculan Disputations" from an Epicurean perspective. Today we continue our discussion with the second half of section 10 of Part 5 where Cicero criticizes Metrodorus and Epicurus for allegedly making high-sounding statements by being inconsistent for involving pleasure and pain in them.
As we discussed last week, Cicero identifies this question of whether and how the wise man can always be happy as one of the most important - perhaps the most important - in philosophy.
Today we will look at the four points that are summarized all-too-briefly in the "Tetrapharmakon," and we will expand on the meaning of each branch by referring to the full text of the first four Principal Doctrines, supporting statements in the letters and fragments of Epicurus, and to where Cicero has Torquatus reference them in Book One of On Ends, including:
XIX. At the same time this Stoic doctrine can be stated in a form which we do not object to, and indeed ourselves endorse. For Epicurus thus presents his Wise Man who is always happy: (3) his desires are kept within bounds; (2) death he disregards; (1) he has a true conception, untainted by fear, of the Divine nature; (4) he does not hesitate to depart from life, if that would better his condition. Thus equipped he enjoys perpetual pleasure, for there is no moment when the pleasures he experiences do not outbalance the pains; since he remembers the past with gratitude, grasps the present with a full realization of its pleasantness, and does not rely upon the future; he looks forward to it, but finds his true enjoyment in the present.
XII. Again, the truth that pleasure is the supreme good can be most easily apprehended from the following consideration. (3) Let us imagine an individual in the enjoyment of pleasures great, numerous and constant, both mental and bodily, with no pain to thwart or threaten them; I ask what circumstances can we describe as more excellent than these or more desirable? A man whose circumstances are such must needs possess, as well as other things, a robust mind subject to no fear of death or pain, because (2) death is apart from sensation, and (4) pain when lasting is usually slight, when oppressive is of short duration, so that its temporariness reconciles us to its intensity, and its slightness to its continuance. When in addition we suppose that such a man is (1) in no awe of the influence of the gods, and does not allow his past pleasures to slip away, but takes delight in constantly recalling them, what circumstance is it possible to add to these, to make his condition better?
Cassius November 12, 2025 at 7:09 PM
We will probably find useful material in the Bernier/Gassendi Three Discourses material, because on page 13 Epicurus' view of happiness is summarized, citing several particulars which are of prime importance, followed by a well-developed explanation of each. But these are not the four, but the following:
1 - The Knowledge and Fear of God ("the right ideas we are to entertain") (p.14)
2 - That Death is not an Evil (p. 15)
3 - Do Not End Your Life Prematurely ( ...Relates to the abominable opinion of the Stoics that men in some cases have liberty to commit suicide.) (p.25) On page 28 B/G argues that Epicurus did *not* hasten his own death. B/G seems to be ignoring what is said in the letter to Menoeceus and B/G seems to *endorse* the idea that it would be better never to have been born (?!)
4 - Do Not Be Impatient For Or Despair Of The Future. The proper attitude toward the future is neither to be impatient for it nor to despair (p.34)
5 - Focus on the present and do not defer happiness (p 35)
6 - Proper Attitude Toward Natural and Necessary Desires (p 39)
7 - The Call to Study Philosophy (p39)
As to Epicurus we shall speak more at large, that he makes Happiness to consist in the Ease of the Body, and the Tranquility of the Mind, teaching at the same time, and maintaining, That the efficient Causes of this Felicity, are neither the delicious Wines, nor the delicate Meats, nor any such thing; but a sound, just and enlightened Reason assisted by Virtue, from which it is not to be separated, and which duly weighs and examines the Causes and Motives that induce us, either to embrace or shun any thing. Therefore designing to treat afterwards of Happiness, he earnestly exhorts, to consider thoroughly of the things that conduce to it; and because amongst those things the chief is, That the Mind may be disengaged from certain Mistakes, which cause continual Disturbances and vain Fears, he mentions several Particulars, which he believes to be of that Importance, that when well examined, will settle the Mind, and procure to it a real and solid Happiness.
Cassius November 19, 2025 at 10:40 AM
I'll be adding some notes as I make while editing this episode. Thist first note also relates to recent comments about natural and necessary desires and how one of the key aspects of the unnatural / unnecessary category is that they CANNOT be satisfied.
I probably did not emphasize the "limit" issue enough in comparing PD3 to what Cicero is saying. I think there's definitely a parallel between PD3 and what Torquatus says:
PD03. The limit of quantity in pleasures is the removal of all that is painful. Wherever pleasure is present, as long as it is there, there is neither pain of body, nor of mind, nor of both at once.
Torquatus in On Ends Part 1 - XII. Again, the truth that pleasure is the supreme good can be most easily apprehended from the following consideration. (3) Let us imagine an individual in the enjoyment of pleasures great, numerous and constant, both mental and bodily, with no pain to thwart or threaten them; I ask what circumstances can we describe as more excellent than these or more desirable? A man whose circumstances are such must needs possess, as well as other things, a robust mind subject to no fear of death or pain, because (2) death is apart from sensation, and (4) pain when lasting is usually slight, when oppressive is of short duration, so that its temporariness reconciles us to its intensity, and its slightness to its continuance. When in addition we suppose that such a man is (1) in no awe of the influence of the gods, and does not allow his past pleasures to slip away, but takes delight in constantly recalling them, what circumstance is it possible to add to these, to make his condition better?
Both of these underlined sections from Torquatus are making the point that after you reach the desired status then it cannot be made "better" or "more excellent."
As I think about it now that's probably the best way to understand the "limit of quantity" reference in PD03, and how it relatest to the "variety" issue. Certainly longer time allows for more pleasure in terms of time, and someone could argue that more time allows for more "quantity" of pleasure.
The ultimate point seems to be that the definition of the "best" feeling of pleasure is when pleasure is not accompanied by any pain. That fits nicely with the additional point no extra amount of time allows for pleasure that is "better" or "more excellent" than the pleasure we can experience here and now. And it's a target or a theoretical goal as much as anything else, because we can still be "happy" even if we don't always or even ever reach the point of eliminating all pain. As evidence for that we have Epicurus saying that he happy even during his final sickness and Diogenes Laertius and Cicero saying that Epicurus held that the wise man can be "happy" even under torture.
if indeed this is Torquatus' way of expressing PD03, and I think it probably is, then I'd say that this is a much more understandable-to-modern-ears way of saying it.
This podcast will be released later today. In the meantime another note:
In discussing the tetrapharmakon i make the comment around 28 minutes in that people often have a problem with the use of the term "easy" as it applies to the good being easy to get and the bad being easy to endure.
In connection with other points being made in recent episodes, I am going to explore over time this possibility that i have not ordinarily stressed:
(1) it is clear that Epicurus saw the need to address the challenge made in Philebus and other places that the highest good must "have a limit" as stated also in PD03.
(2) I have previously taken the position that Epicurus was meeting that challenge by stating that when all pain is eliminated that is by definition or theory the limit of pleasure, and I do continue to think that makes sense.
(3) In the past however I have dismissed this argument as having further implications and therefore did not apply it further, and that led me to the tendency to dismiss the argument as having any real merit on its own.
(4) However on thinking further I now begin to believe that Epicurus did not mean to diminish the importance of the argument, and that he in fact embraced it himself in his own presentation.
(5) By now in this list my direction is probably clear: of course this tetrapharmakos wording was not as far as we know from Epicurus himself, so the "easy" is what is suspicious. I now want to explore the possibility that the real meaning of what is captured here is not that what is good is necessarily "easy" to get, but that what is good (pleasure) is "attainable" because in fact it is graspable in full, it "has a limit" that enables it to be grasped.
(6) the same will go for pain in the fourth leg. The point would not be that the terrible is "easy" to avoid or endure, but that it is in fact "attainable" to endure it because it too has a limit - it cannot remain forever because death will terminate even the worst pain.
Epicurus never says in PD03 or PD04 tha what is good or bad is "easy" to reach. That's an overlay of the tendency of some people to focus on "absence of pain" as being akin to nothingness and therefore "easy" to obtain. The argument Epicurus is addressing, and then picking up for his own use is clearly different from that. The point is more likely to be that what is truly good and bad in life is not some fantasy of idealistic divine perfection, or evil in the sense of a supernatural force or eternal punishment in hell. What is true is instead that the good (pleasure) is attainable, and the bad (pain) is avoidable, because they "have a limit" which cannot be exceeded.
This line of thinking would parallel other recent comments I have made that, as Torquatus is stressing, the key to the understanding of the natural and necessary desire analysis is that it helps to analyze whether the goal of the desire is in fact attainable, and therefore reasonable to pursue, or in fact unattainable, and therefore unreasonable by definition to pursue.
The fact that most people fail miserably in achieving happiness and avoiding disaster is proof that none of this is "easy," and I don't think Epicurus would have agreed with that kind of phrasing. I doubt Epicurus considered at the end of his life that all of his efforts to build his school had been "easy" at all, and in fact I think he would have resented the implication.
A reference from this podcast for those who don't know it. I am amazed that in a quick look for "how sweet it is" with Jackie Gleason this is the only one i find. I know there must be hundreds more:
Episode 308 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Tracing Four Key Ideas From the Principal Doctrines to the Tetrapharmakon To Cicero's Epicureans"
I've now posted the episode and in finalizing the title I realized that the proper name is tracing these four ideas from the Principal Doctrines to the Tetrapharmakon to Cicero's Epicurean SpeakerS" - but we only mentioned Torquatus. For those reading this thread in the future a complete treatment of this as to PD01 and the correct view of the gods would necessarily include what Velleius had to say in Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods."
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