Welcome to Episode 290 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.
Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
This week we continue our series covering Cicero's "Tusculan Disputations" from an Epicurean viewpoint.
Today we continue in Part 3, which addresses anger, pity, envy, and other strong emotions. Today we'll continued where we ended last week in Section X.
When we get to section XIII we'll get to our first direct information about Epicurus and how he difffered from the Cyreniacs:
QuoteEpicurus is of opinion, that grief arises naturally from the imagination of any evil; so that whosoever is eye-witness of any great misfortune, if he conceives that the like may possibly befal himself, becomes sad instantly from such an idea. The Cyrenaics think that grief is not engendered by every kind of evil, but only by unexpected, unforeseen evil; and that circumstance is, indeed, of no small effect on the heightening of grief; for whatsoever comes of a sudden appears more formidable.
Cicero develops an argument around this claim in Book 2 of On Ends, we'll need to find that section. The basic argument he makes is something like this;
- Epicurus holds that pain/fear/mental disturbance is an evil.
- It is not possible to be confident that one will avoid this evil in perpetuity.
- If the Epicurean cannot be confident of this, he cannot guarantee his continuing happiness, and as a result present happiness will be impossible.
- The Epicurean can never be happy.
Good point Joshua. Bringing out how this sparring was being conducted on both sides is very helpful for understanding why Epicurus phrased things he way he did, and why a basic formulation such as "...we call pleasure the beginning and end of the happy life) might occur in the letter to Menoeceus, but "the limit of quantity of pleasure...." occurs at the top of the principal doctrines. In an outline for a young friend you might use a simple step by step series of reminders, while in listing key points of differences between schools it's more appropriate to first confront well-known and well-defined disputes. And what you're talking about was a well known and defined dispute arising from definition and use of words like "evil" and "happy."
helpful for understanding why Epicurus phrased things he way he did, and why a basic formulation such as "...we call pleasure the beginning and end of the happy life)
This may be pedantic, but to be precise in current meaning and clarity:
..."the start and the goal" ...and not: "the start and the cessation".
(After having studied Buddhism "the end" meant "cessation").
why a basic formulation such as "...we call pleasure the beginning and end of the happy life) might occur in the letter to Menoeceus
From my Menoikeus paper:
A short digression is now in order to examine that phrase ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος "the foundation and fulfillment, the beginning and end." Often, this is simply translated as "the beginning and the end" as if there's a starting line and a finish line. This is much deeper than that, although the running of a race could be one metaphor that could used. Let's first look at the word ἀρχὴν (accusative of ἀρχή).
ἀρχή (arkhē)
English archeology "study of beginnings/origins" but also the -archy in monarchy, patriarchy, etc.
ᾰ̓ρχή carries the meaning of beginning, origin, foundation, the farthest point. It even took on the meaning of "the corners of a sheet" by the time the New Testament was being written (Acts 10:11). It also had the connotation of the "beginning of power" residing in a ruler, the "most important person" in a kingdom. It carries the idea of a foundational element or first principle. The alpha (first letter of the Greek alphabet) to τέλος's omega (the last letter of the Greek alphabet) which is how Hicks translated them.
τέλος (telos) carries the meaning of endings, the goal, completion, maturity, result, fulfillment, consummation. Where αρχή is the foundation, τέλος is the highest point. The definition of τέλος in LSJ is extensive!
Αρχή is not quite as long but gives the nuance we're working with.
Therefore, to translate ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος as "beginning and end" (every other translation I've seen except Hicks) misses a lot of deeper meaning. This phrase is one that I highly recommend giving more attention to in one's personal translation or at least being aware of when reading. We miss so much by not examining Epicurus's words. Always go back to the texts!

Cassius July 16, 2025 at 3:17 PM
Episode 290 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. Today our episode is entitled: "Tiptoeing Around All Disturbance Is Not Living"
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