Welcome to Episode 267 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.
Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.
This week we are continuing our review of the key doctrines of Epicurus that are featured here at Epicureansfriends on the front page of our website.
This week we will address "Virtue Is Not Absolute Or An End In Itself - All Good And Evil Consists In Sensation."
Our discussion outline (work in progress!) will be here.
In preparation for this coming weekend's recording of episode 265, I thought I would see if anyone had any suggestions for texts to include on the specific topic of the competition between virtue and pleasure for the title of "highest good."
While the letter to Menoeceus and the Principle Doctrines (for example, PD05) mention specific virtues like justice and honor and wisdom, I am looking for texts that specifically contrast the competition between "virtue" as a category vs "pleasure" as a category for the top role.
Diogenes Laertius' inscription contains the "shouting" fragment that the end of life is pleasure and not virtue, and Torquatus goes on at length about this precise competition.
I think one of the Jefferson letters makes the specific point too.
Those give us most of the material we need, but if anyone remembers anything else referencing virtue vs pleasure on the category level that we should be sure to include, please add to this thread.
There's lots of material in praise of pleasure from which we can choose as needed, and many references to particular virtues like justice. But if anyone remembers any specific comparisons of pleasure vs virtue in any of the secondary literature (other works of Cicero, works of Plutarch, or Philodemus, etc,) please post in the thread and i will add it to the discussion outline here.
Thanks!
"Of all this the beginning and the greatest good is prudence. Wherefore prudence is a more precious thing even than philosophy: for from prudence are sprung all the other virtues, and it teaches us that it is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently and honorably and justly, (nor, again, to live a life of prudence, honor, and justice) without living pleasantly. For the virtues are by nature bound up with the pleasant life, and the pleasant life is inseparable from them." - Letter to Menoeceus
****
"Yes, just as we regard with favour the physician's skill not for his art's sake merely but because we prize sound health, and just as the pilot's art is praised on utilitarian and not on artistic grounds, because it supplies the principles of good navigation, so wisdom, which we must hold to be the art of living, would be no object of desire, if it were productive of no advantage; but it is in fact desired, because it is to us as an architect that plans and accomplishes pleasure." - Cicero "On Ends" Torquatus section.
Here is another way to word the title of this episode:
"Virtue is a means for pleasure, and not an end in itself."
- and -
"Good is that which causes pleasure or is pleasurable, evil is that which causes pain or is painful"
Very exciting for me 👍
The Stoics who I challenge to convince me that Virtue is the only good point always to Platos Socrates Euthydemus( maybe the points which there are mentioned could be challenged):
- Virtue is in our power Pleasure/ Tranquility depends on Externals (only true for bodily Pleasure, not so much for Mental Pleasure I think, that is an „Internal“ or ?)
-Without Virtue nothing is good
-Only with Virtue things can be used useful
Another point:
Ataraxia is Peace of mind, confidence, fearlessness etc ….
But ok I can have peace of mind / tranquility in ignoring troubling facts, taking tranquilizers or ( with virtue ) fulfilling your values, duties, confronting uncomfortable things/ situations.
The Epicureans are often accused of the first. (Defense: you need to live wise, ->honourable<-, justly to live pleasurable)
Thank you Matteng!
To repeat, Matteng, this post is very helpful. We have some sickness that is going to cause us to delay this episode for a week. That will give us time to take up this suggestion, and address the major arguments that Stoics and Platonists make for this position.
If anyone has other specific "virtue-is-in-itself-the-highest-good" arguments let us know and we'll try to include them - even if it takes us more than one episode to do so.
This is no doubt one of the most profound division points of all, so it will be good to cover it is strongly as we can.
I presume that the pro-virtue argument is stated succinctly by Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus as well, so if anyone knows particularly pithy citations to parts of their work that we should consider including as well, please post.
Using Deepseek here is a preliminary list. I doubt this is by any means the best, but it is a good list of names:
The Stoics, a school of Hellenistic philosophy, firmly believed that virtue (moral excellence) is the highest good and the key to a flourishing life. They argued that virtue is sufficient for happiness and that external things like wealth, fame, and pleasure are indifferent. Below are some of the most famous quotes from ancient Stoics in support of virtue being the highest good:
1. Marcus Aurelius
Marcus Aurelius, the Roman Emperor and Stoic philosopher, emphasized the importance of virtue in his personal writings, Meditations.
Quote"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
— Meditations, Book 10
Quote"The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts: therefore, guard accordingly, and take care that you entertain no notions unsuitable to virtue and reasonable nature."
— Meditations, Book 5
Quote"Just that you do the right thing. The rest doesn’t matter."
— Meditations, Book 12
2. Epictetus
Epictetus, a former slave turned Stoic teacher, focused on the importance of aligning one's will with virtue and reason.
Quote"First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do."
— Discourses, Book 3
Quote"Virtue is the only good. There is no other good, neither early nor late, neither great nor small, neither in the living nor in the dead."
— Discourses, Book 2
Quote"Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants."
— Discourses, Book 2
3. Seneca
Seneca, the Roman Stoic philosopher and statesman, wrote extensively about the importance of virtue and the dangers of vice.
Quote"Virtue is nothing else than right reason."
— Letters to Lucilius, Letter 66
Quote"The greatest good is virtue; the next, liberty; the third and last, the necessaries of life."
— Letters to Lucilius, Letter 74
Quote"It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor."
— Letters to Lucilius, Letter 2
4. Zeno of Citium
Zeno of Citium, the founder of Stoicism, laid the groundwork for the Stoic emphasis on virtue.
Quote"Happiness is a good flow of life."
— Zeno (as reported by Diogenes Laërtius)
Quote"The goal of life is living in agreement with nature, and virtue is the harmony between the will and nature."
— Zeno (paraphrased from Stoic teachings)
5. Cleanthes
Cleanthes, the second head of the Stoic school, reinforced the idea that virtue is the only true good.
Quote"Lead me, Zeus, and you too, Destiny, to wherever your decrees have assigned me. I follow readily, but if I choose not, wretched as I will be, I must follow still."
— Hymn to Zeus
6. Musonius Rufus
Musonius Rufus, a Roman Stoic philosopher, emphasized the practical application of virtue in daily life.
Quote"Virtue is not only an ability but also a disposition to act in accordance with reason."
— Lectures, Lecture 1
Quote"The human being is born with an inclination toward virtue."
— Lectures, Lecture 2
Summary
The Stoics consistently taught that virtue is the highest good and the foundation of a good life. Virtue, for them, meant living in accordance with reason, nature, and moral excellence. External goods like wealth, health, and fame were considered "indifferents"—neither good nor bad in themselves, but only in how they are used.
If you'd like to explore these ideas further, I recommend reading:
- Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
- Discourses and Enchiridion by Epictetus
- Letters to Lucilius by Seneca
Both Plato and Aristotle, two of the most influential philosophers in Western thought, placed great emphasis on virtue as central to a good and flourishing life. While their approaches to virtue differ, they both argued that virtue is essential for achieving eudaimonia (happiness or flourishing). Below are some of their most famous quotes in support of virtue being the highest good.
Plato on Virtue
Plato, through the voice of Socrates in his dialogues, often explores the nature of virtue (aretē) and its role in achieving a just and harmonious soul.
1. Virtue as the Health of the Soul
Quote"Virtue is the health and beauty and well-being of the soul, and vice is the disease and weakness and deformity of the soul."
— Republic, Book 4 (444e)
2. Virtue and Knowledge
Quote"No one does wrong willingly. Evil is the result of ignorance. If people knew what was right, they would do it."
— Protagoras (352c)
3. The Importance of Virtue
Quote"The most important thing is not life, but the good life."
— Crito (48b)
4. Virtue as the Highest Good
Quote"The good is the end of all endeavor, the object on which every heart is set."
— Republic, Book 7 (505e)
5. Virtue and Justice
Quote"Justice is the excellence of the soul, and injustice is the defect of the soul."
— Republic, Book 1 (353e)
Aristotle on Virtue
Aristotle, in his Nicomachean Ethics, provides a systematic account of virtue (aretē) as the mean between extremes and the foundation of a flourishing life.
1. Virtue as the Highest Good
Quote"Happiness is an activity of the soul in accordance with virtue."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1098a)
2. Virtue as a Habit
Quote"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 2 (1103a)
3. The Golden Mean
Quote"Virtue is a mean between two vices, one of excess and one of deficiency."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 2 (1106b)
4. Virtue and Reason
Quote"The function of man is to live a certain kind of life, and this activity implies a rational principle, and the function of a good man is the good and noble performance of these."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1098a)
5. Virtue and Happiness
Quote"Happiness depends on ourselves, and it is achieved through virtue, which is a state of character concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1106b)
6. The Role of Virtue in a Flourishing Life
Quote"The good for man is an activity of the soul in accordance with virtue, and if there are many virtues, in accordance with the best and most complete."
— Nicomachean Ethics, Book 1 (1098a)
Key Differences Between Plato and Aristotle
- Plato: Virtue is closely tied to knowledge and the harmony of the soul. In the Republic, he argues that a just soul, governed by reason, is the key to happiness.
- Aristotle: Virtue is a habit developed through practice and lies in finding the "golden mean" between extremes. He emphasizes that virtue is not just theoretical but must be lived through action.
Summary
Both Plato and Aristotle agree that virtue is the highest good and essential for a flourishing life. Plato focuses on the harmony of the soul and the role of knowledge in achieving virtue, while Aristotle emphasizes the practical development of virtuous habits and the importance of reason in guiding ethical behavior.
If you'd like to explore these ideas further, I recommend reading:
- Plato’s Republic and Meno
- Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics
Let me know if you'd like more quotes or insights!
I'll combine that with this from ChatGPT;
Here are some notable quotes from ancient Stoics that support the idea of virtue as the highest good:
- Marcus Aurelius:
- "If it is not right, do not do it. If it is not true, do not say it." (Meditations, Book XII, 17)
- This reflects the Stoic emphasis on virtue as the guiding principle for action and speech, aligning behavior with moral integrity.
- Epictetus:
- "Virtue consists in a will which is in agreement with Nature." (Discourses, 1.4.11)
- For Epictetus, aligning one’s will with nature and reason (the Stoic ideal) is the essence of virtue and the highest good.
- Seneca:
- "Virtue is nothing else than right reason." (Letters to Lucilius, 66.32)
- This statement underscores the Stoic belief that living in accordance with reason and acting virtuously are inseparable.
- Cicero (a Roman statesman influenced by Stoicism):
- "The good life is not possible without virtue, and virtue itself is sufficient for happiness." (De Finibus Bonorum et Malorum, Book III)
- Cicero emphasizes the Stoic principle that virtue alone is both necessary and sufficient for achieving true happiness.
- Zeno of Citium (founder of Stoicism):
- "Happiness is a good flow of life, and this can only be achieved through the possession of virtue." (Fragment cited by Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, VII.88)
- Zeno defines happiness as living in accordance with nature and virtue, highlighting the centrality of virtue to the Stoic conception of the good life.
These quotes illustrate the Stoic doctrine that virtue is the ultimate good, and other aspects of life (such as health, wealth, or pleasure) are secondary or indifferent in comparison.
Here are some significant quotes from Plato and Aristotle that emphasize virtue as the highest good:
Plato
- "The soul of the man who lives justly and who is dear to the gods is in the best condition."
- (The Republic, Book X, 613a)
- Plato connects justice, a core virtue, to the ultimate well-being of the soul, suggesting that virtue leads to the highest good.
- "Virtue does not spring from riches, but riches and all other human goods, both private and public, from virtue."
- (The Apology, 30b)
- In this statement, Socrates (as Plato's mouthpiece) argues that virtue is the source of all good things, prioritizing it above material wealth and worldly pursuits.
- "The life which is unexamined is not worth living."
- (The Apology, 38a)
- While not directly about virtue, this emphasizes the need for self-reflection and pursuit of wisdom, which Plato associates with living virtuously and achieving the highest form of good.
Aristotle
- "Happiness is an activity of the soul in accordance with perfect virtue."
- (Nicomachean Ethics, Book I, 1098a16-17)
- Aristotle defines happiness (eudaimonia), the highest human good, as the practice of virtue in accordance with reason over a complete life.
- "The good for man is an activity of the soul in conformity with excellence or virtue."
- (Nicomachean Ethics, Book I, 1098a7-8)
- Aristotle ties the highest good to actions performed in line with virtue, emphasizing that virtue is essential for achieving the good life.
- "Moral virtue comes about as a result of habit."
- (Nicomachean Ethics, Book II, 1103a14)
- Here, Aristotle highlights that virtue is cultivated through habitual practice, making it the foundation of ethical behavior and a life well-lived.
- "The best good is happiness, and this is achieved through a life of virtue in accordance with reason."
- (Nicomachean Ethics, Book X, 1177a12-18)
- Aristotle argues that human flourishing depends on living virtuously, guided by reason, as the ultimate good.
Both philosophers affirm that virtue is fundamental to achieving the highest good, though Plato views it as a harmony of the soul aligned with the Forms, while Aristotle frames it as the practical realization of reason in human life.

Cassius January 26, 2025 at 12:01 PM
Additional from Marcus Aurelius, Diogenes Laertius Book VII (on Zeno of Citium), and Seneca:
Marcus Aurelius, Book IV: 16. Within ten days thou wilt seem a god to those to whom thou art now a beast and an ape, if thou wilt return to thy principles and the worship of reason.
Marcus Aurelius, Book I: 8. From Apollonius I learned freedom of will and undeviating steadiness of purpose; and to look to nothing else, not even for a moment, except to reason….
Marcus Aurelius - In the constitution of the rational animal I see no virtue which is opposed to justice; but I see a virtue which is opposed to love of pleasure, and that is temperance.
Diogenes Laertius, Life of Zeno: 100. The reason why they characterize the perfect good as beautiful is that it has in full all the "factors" required by nature or has perfect proportion. Of the beautiful there are (say they) four species, namely, what is just, courageous, orderly and wise; for it is under these forms that fair deeds are accomplished. Similarly there are four species of the base or ugly, namely, what is unjust, cowardly, disorderly, and unwise. By the beautiful is meant properly and in an unique sense that good which renders its possessors praiseworthy, or briefly, good which is worthy of praise; though in another sense it signifies a good aptitude for one's proper function; while in yet another sense the beautiful is that which lends new grace to anything, as when we say of the wise man that he alone is good and beautiful. 101. And they say that only the morally beautiful is good. So Hecato in his treatise On Goods, book iii., and Chrysippus in his work On the Morally Beautiful. They hold, that is, that virtue and whatever partakes of virtue consists in this: which is equivalent to saying that all that is good is beautiful, or that the term "good" has equal force with the term "beautiful," which comes to the same thing. "Since a thing is good, it is beautiful; now it is beautiful, therefore it is good." They hold that all goods are equal and that all good is desirable in the highest degree and admits of no lowering or heightening of intensity. Of things that are, some, they say, are good, some are evil, and some neither good nor evil (that is, morally indifferent).
And Athenaeus the epigrammatist speaks of all the Stoics in common as follows:[22] O ye who’ve learnt the doctrines of the Porch And have committed to your books divine The best of human learning, teaching men That the mind’s virtue is the only good! She only it is who keeps the lives of men And cities, – safer than high gates and walls. But those who place their happiness in pleasure Are led by the least worthy of the Muses. Diogenes Laertius Book VII
Goods comprise the virtues of prudence, justice, courage, temperance, and the rest; while the opposites of these are evils, namely, folly, injustice, and the rest. Neutral (neither good nor evil, that is) are all those things which neither benefit nor harm a man: such as life, health, pleasure, beauty, strength, wealth, fair fame and noble birth, and their opposites, death, disease, pain, ugliness, weakness, poverty, ignominy, low birth, and the like. Diogenes Laertius Book VII
Pleasure is an irrational elation at the accruing of what seems to be choiceworthy; and under it are ranged ravishment, malevolent joy, delight, transport. Ravishment is pleasure which charms the ear. Malevolent joy is pleasure at another’s ills. Delight is the mind’s propulsion to weakness, its name in Greek (τέρψις) being akin to τρέψις or turning. To be in transports of delight is the melting away of virtue. Diogenes Laertius Book VII
“And yet what reason is there that he should provide a living? For if it be to support life, life itself is after all a thing indifferent. If it be for pleasure, pleasure too is a thing indifferent. While if it be for virtue, virtue in itself is sufficient to constitute happiness. Diogenes Laertius Book VII
Seneca’s Letters – To Lucilius – 66.45: “What can be added to that which is perfect? Nothing otherwise that was not perfect to which something has been added. Nor can anything be added to virtue, either, for if anything can be added thereto, it must have contained a defect. Honour, also, permits of no addition; for it is honourable because of the very qualities which I have mentioned.[5] What then? Do you think that propriety, justice, lawfulness, do not also belong to the same type, and that they are kept within fixed limits? The ability to increase is proof that a thing is still imperfect.
Regretfully I am going to have to announce another one week postponement of this episode. Several additional conflicts have developed that cause the prudent course to be to record this on February 9th rather than February 2nd.
I have, however, made further progress on the discussion outline, so feel free to reference it here:
Virtue Is Not Absolute Or An End In Itself Because All Good And Evil Consists In Sensation
As you'll see if you click over there, I've already collected far too many citations to cover in a single episode.
As I see it the most important thing for us to cover as an introductory discussion for new students of Epicurus (and remember, that's our target audience, not professional academics) boils down to something like:
Plato and Aristotle had held that virtue is essential to a happy life, but they defined happiness in terms of rationality or piety to the gods. The Stoics went further and held virtue to be an end in itself, and the same for all people at all times and places. Epicurus rejected virtue as an end itself, or the same for all, but instead held that virtue is a necessary and inseparable tool, to be applied contextually, for achieving the best life - a life of pleasure.
Also let me repeat that I invite anyone to suggest issues to cover, as did Matteng in post 5 above.
Matteng's suggestions from Stoic criticisms are good general aspects such as:
- Virtue is in our power but pleasure/tranquility depends on externals
- Without Virtue nothing is good
- Only with virtue can anything be useful
Feel free to add to our list and we'll try to cover them.
Regretfully I am going to have to announce another one week postponement of this episode.
You're just building anticipation

Cassius February 2, 2025 at 9:44 AM
Take your time, for me it is as you say one of the most important subject to distinguish Epicureanism vs the other ancient schools especially Stoicism which I followed in the past.
Quality first 👍
In addition, it is precisely on this topic that the harshest criticism of Epicureanism is voiced. For example the critics say that where Virtue is instrumental for Pleasure, this Virtue wouldn't be Virtue at all or only a weak form of it and Pleasure enslaved.
( Often the divison of Pleasure of Body and Mind is not considered, for Peace of Mind/Tranquility it often makes sense to not pursue bodily Pleasures, and for the subject of bad consequences of things which bring Pleasure like addiction, Epicurus has his answers like sober reasoning, hedonic calculus, what brings more pain than pleasure should be avoided….)
The Stoics accept only a perfected rational joy(chara). But even this they would not see as the end of the happy life but Virtue (Maybe because you can get to a form of Tranquility with ignorance and in running from challenges/duties ( another critic), but this is not suadtainable/honorable/just/prudent(defense).
A perfect Peace of Mind is only available for a perfect Sage and with Virtue (The Stoics say) ( maybe an unlimited desire for limitless self improvement ? )
We're looking to get Joshua back in action and happily we are hoping for Don to participate so we should be ready with all guns blazing for the recording next week!
One more thing about planning for this program.
We have lots of citations we can go through with various perspectives on whether virtue is the goal of life, the same for all, its own reward, etc.
But I think we need to start out with some basic issues to set the stage for all the rest, such as:
What Is Virtue?
- How do we know what is virtuous and what is not?
- Can the same action be virtuous in one situation and not virtuous in another?
- If so, how do we distinguish between the two actions in different contexts?
- What is the source of "virtue"?
- The gods?
- Ideal forms?
- Rationality?
- Nature? Does nature tell us somehow what is virtuous?
- Our minds? Is virtue simply what we say it is?
I've added that to the discussion outline as the place to start:
Virtue Is Not Absolute Or An End In Itself Because All Good And Evil Consists In Sensation
I think you have to start even more basic.
What is virtue?
Αρήτη (arete) means something wider than what we tend to think of as "virtue."
And Latin virtus is bound up with being "manly" being a vir.
Yes - just constantly referring to lists like this one does not answer the question or tell us what we need to know.
And remember, about half of what we need to address is what Epicurus said about it, but maybe more than half of what we need to do is cut through the image of virtue that most people think of today given the Stoic/Religious perspective.
The four classic cardinal virtues are:[4]
- Prudence (φρόνησις, phrónēsis; Latin: prudentia; also Wisdom, Sophia, sapientia), the ability to discern the appropriate course of action to be taken in a given situation at the appropriate time.
- Fortitude (ἀνδρεία, andreía; Latin: fortitudo
also termed courage, forbearance, strength, endurance, and the ability to confront fear, uncertainty, and intimidation.
- Temperance (σωφροσύνη, sōphrosýnē; Latin: temperantia
also known as restraint, the practice of self-control, abstention, discretion, and moderation tempering the appetition. Plato considered sōphrosynē, which may also be translated as sound-mindedness, to be the most important virtue.
- Justice (δικαιοσύνη, dikaiosýnē; Latin: iustitia
also considered as fairness;[5] the Greek word also having the meaning of righteousness.
This enumeration is traced to Greek philosophy and was listed by Plato who also added piety (ὁσιότης, hosiotēs) and replaced prudence with wisdom.[6] Some scholars consider either of the above four virtue combinations as mutually reducible and therefore not cardinal.[7]
ΑΡΕΤΗ (my misspelling previously)
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀρετή
Virtus
Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary, virtūs
Thanks Don --- the second link worked fine but not the first -- looks like there's maybe an error in "entry=a)reth" in that link?
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