Forward vs Backward Momentum

Hello everybody

I started at the bottom in the illustration (at the “Misery” point). Being there was painful, but it was also easy: I didn't need to expend a lot of energy, I didn't need to try, exert myself, and so on. Now, as I do my best to act according to proper choice (capture pleasure) and avoidance (set free from pain), things get less painful – but they also get harder. On some days, it is very tempting to give up, because the self-defeating backward momentum/pull to try less, work less hard, exert myself less is always there, and always easy – unpleasant results, but easy to do! – and the only reason I don't give up is because I know full well how painful things get down that road. I'm quite certain there will come a tipping point mid way, from whereon I will be in forward momentum, on a roll, and the pull of doing what is easier / the temptation of reduced energy expenditure will actually draw me in the direction of pleasure (up) instead of in the direction of pain (down). It has always been more pleasurable to do my best with choice & avoidance and to act accordingly, but it's not yet the easier thing to do. (Of course, part of making the correct action the easier action is habituation.)

My question is: Is there a passage in the texts to help me keep going until I reach that tipping point?

Thank you 🌻

(The numbers and minor asymmetries in the graphic have no deeper meaning; it's just a quick sketch to help me explain. Crossing the X axis would be the tipping point where the direction of the pull/momentum changes and things get both better and easier (instead of better but harder).)

Quote from Cassius

[…] reminding myself of limited time may be temporarily painful, but it is the ultimate motivator.

You're right! Somehow I keep forgetting that. Now I remember the "let's not waste time in confusion" catchphrase of the podcast intro.

Quote from Cassius

PD02. Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved is without sensation; and that which lacks sensation is nothing to us. (Which I do not interpret primarily as a relief from fear of hell, since I already know from PDO1 that any kind of supernatural hell is impossible. Instead, I see this primarily a reminder that after death there is nothing, so everything that I want to do has to be done in this life, before death.)

I had not yet seen PD02 from that angle, but this makes a whole lot of sense! Somehow, the group of thoughts which happen in that diagram remained unconnected to there being limited time only.

Quote from Cassius

VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and I have closed off every one of your devious entrances. And we will not give ourselves up as captives, to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for us to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who cling to it maundering, we will leave from life singing aloud glorious triumph-song on how nicely we lived.

This brings to mind Theodore Roosevelt's Man In The Arena speech! I have always liked the eponymous middle section of it, but again, never quite connected it to there being limited time

Quote from Cassius

do something to remember that the clock is ticking

I wonder how I might go about establishing that habit. Since there's nothing I which could piggyback it, nothing that could serve to cue the thought when it's needed, it's probably best to…

Quote from Cassius

VS41. […] and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy.

…just learn the PD and VS by heart, then keep saying them over and over for a while, until they're so present they will come to mind as needed. I remember this method worked well with religious stuff (Once I had repeated it often enough, it kept coming to mind automatically at all the "right" times – if there were such a thing for religion…), so it should work just the same now. Hmm!

Thank you!

Quote from Cassius

I think orthodox Epicurean focus is partly to blame for this. I don't think Epicurus was focused on running from pain like a frightened cat. He was setting the playing field so we can *begin* the analysis of how we spend our time, and after we discuss supernatural interference in PD01, there's really no reason to look back and continue worrying about heaven or hell or anything after death. The focus is on what we do during life!

I agree. This makes more sense; otherwise PD01 and 02 would be repetitive. I never noticed it like that. Thing is, I'm not frightened or anxious of my eventual end, but I'm also ignorant of it 99% of the time, which I really should change. A healthy sense of urgency would certainly do me some good!

Bit of a tangent, but I've been wondering for a while: Which adjective (like "orthodox") would best describe the Epicurean philosophy predominant here, on EpicureanFriends? Is there a list contrasting the main branches of Epicurean philosophy somewhere?

Quote from Cassius

A number of years ago I worked in an office building right next to a very old cemetery, and many days at lunch we would walk through the cemetery to get to restaurants downtown. I miss doing that because looking and at reading the tombstones is one of the best reminders that we will be there someday too!

I can see how that would help.

Quote from Pacatus

I wear a bracelet inscribed with "memento mori." It was Don who pointed out to me that this could be taken as much (maybe moreso) in an Epicurean vein as a Stoic one (where it seems to usually show up).

I agree with Don's perspective that it should be seen in more of an Epicurean than a Stoic light, but to me the phrase "Memento Mori" is too – and this is subjective – to me it is too closely associated with Christianism; but I hear what you're saying: I'll try and see if I can get a nice NFFNSNC ring or pendant somehow.

Quote from Eoghan Gardiner

Not much to add but I like to use the limited time to ask myself "I'm gonna be dead soon, is this really worth being anxious about?" Sometimes.it is but a lot of the time we are anxious about silly things, at least I am.

Similarly, I tend to seek out things I cannot change but will get mad about; mostly that's politics. I used to not follow daily news at all. Through various ways, I slipped into this, and am now slowly, step by step quitting the vice again. The constant, instigated series of scandals and drama isn't worth my time and attention; it's just silly.

Quote from Pacatus

But, as Ram Das once quipped: “The most difficult thing is to remember – to remember!”

This reminds me that "To be there is to remember" which to me has a strong meaning due to (sometimes prolonged, intense) dissociation: Even though I might have been physically present, if I cannot remember, I wasn't really there. (Which can be a comfort.)

Quote from Pacatus

I doubt any of that is helpful.

What you said was indeed helpful, because this similar sentence already pops up in my mind repeatedly, and I can use it as a cue: I can attach a 2nd meaning to it, namely that, eventually, I will not get another chance to remember anything at all (in the sense Cassius explained for PD02).

PD02's warning about no more sensations doesn't bother me all that much (it's too physical, too body-focused; to me, no more sensations actually sounds nice — maybe that's another reason why I had misinterpreted it as a PD01 reprise?); but that I will not get to remember anything anymore, and by extension not get to think anything again, that really reaches me. (Which makes it a bit unpleasant in the moment, but I feel it will ultimately proof to be very helpful!)

Quote from Cassius

Given the open lack of desire of most commentators to embrace the whole sweep of the philosophy, "Classical Epicureanism" has seemed to be a workable label so far.

Hmm. "Classical", by referring to the time-period, is a very sensible and clear choice of words. What also makes sense to me is referring to the Stoic/Buddhist/… pseudo-Epicureans as "various brands of 'neo-Epicureanism'". What confused me was that you contrasted classical with "orthodox"? In my mind, "orthodox" refers to either: (1) a school of thought which is true to its roots, or (2) (more commonly) one which merely claims to be true/right/correct by being (professedly, but not actually) genuine/unmodified/original (and in truth is just an extreme interpretation placing way too much emphasis on individual words, specific translations).

That left me wondering: Is there an "orthodox" Epicurean branch in the sense of (2)? Or did you simply mean the various neo-Epicureans?

Quote from Cassius

On the other hand I think it's important for everyone to have *some* idea of what is going on around them

I agree

Quote from Cassius

The trick is knowing how much is productive and how much is not in your individual case

For me, it is hard to stay well when surrounded by an unending stream of (or virtually infinite pool of) problems (which is why IT security made me so paranoid I eventually had to quit). I attach too much to leave it be, try to find and solve all problems, lose myself in it. So with politics, I now try to keep it strictly pragmatic for an otherwise quasi-unpolitical life: Just the enduring/overarching developments, and changes in law which actually impact me.

Quote from Cassius

Some will want nothing to do with politics, and some won't be able to live with themselves if they aren't "doing what they can."

I don't think I could live with myself if I hadn't, in fact, done what I can, to the point where it severely impacted me. Knowing that I had an impact, nothing larger than life, but still a droplet in the ocean that will forever, if ever so slightly, change the ripples, now allows me to give myself permission to let go and put myself first, put my own pleasure first (which, needless to say, is what I should have done all along…)

Quote from Pacatus

I wear a bracelet inscribed with "memento mori." It was Don who pointed out to me that this could be taken as much (maybe moreso) in an Epicurean vein as a Stoic one (where it seems to usually show up).

Quote from Julia

I agree with Don's perspective that it should be seen in more of an Epicurean than a Stoic light, but to me the phrase "Memento Mori" is too – and this is subjective – to me it is too closely associated with Christianism; but I hear what you're saying: I'll try and see if I can get a nice NFFNSNC ring or pendant somehow.

The NFFNSNC has more of a PD01 connotation, when really I'm looking for PD02 as Cassius has contrasted it above and as Don, Pacatus and I agree is the sense of Memento Mori. While "Death is nothing to us" is catchphrase-y fixed expression, the choice of words of VS14 is far clearer to me. Besides "death is nothing to us", is there a condensed, formulaic phrase capturing that PD02/VS14 meaning which I might want to use?

Quote from Cassius

Yes Julia I need to be more clear and avoid irony / sarcasm in some formulations, and you are right that "orthodox" has confusing possibilities.

Most of the time I use the term I am referring to "modern orthodoxy," rather than an attitude of actually attempting to be true to the Epicurean views of 2000 years ago. In my experience "orthodoxy" has always had a very negative connotation, and that's why I tend to use it negatively and rarely if ever positively. But you are right, loose references are likely to be confusing, and I plan to work on avoiding the term unless I am very clearly spelling out the meaning I intend.

Well, yes, but: What's the difference between this "modern orthodoxy" and "neo-Epicurean"?

Quote from Don

I also found an alternate version online:

If I may add:

• olim non fuimus, nati sumus unde, quieti nunc sumus, ut fuimus, cura relicta (CIL 8.4840) [This one is a bit long]
• non fui, fui, non sum, non desidero (CIL 6.38506) [Too Buddhist for me…]
• non fui, et sum, non ero, non mihi dolet (CIL 6.9258) [Too Stoic for me…]
• non fui, deinde fui, modo non sum (CIL 2.404) [Getting closer]

→ "Non fui, nunc sum, non ero" would be great, but I'm unhappy because I just made it up (Is it even correct Latin? My Latin is practically non-existent. (I know the historical ones were just made up once upon a time, too; but their being historical makes them feel different to me.)) Of the historical ones, so far I might like best the one Don brought up, "Non fui, fui, memini, non sum, non curo" (CIL 13.530):

NFFMNSNC

Hmmm

Quote from Kalosyni

coming up with phrases

Just to avoid confusion ("to come up with" can be: invent or find/remember), the numbered sentences are all historic (CIL is the Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum). I would consider these translations:

CIL 6.38506: I was not, I was, I am not, I do not desire (desidero)
CIL 6.9258: I was not, and I am, I will not be, it neither pains nor grieves me (dolet)
CIL 8.4840: Once we were not, whence we were born, now we are at peace (quieti), as we were, care left

Granted, from context both "at rest" and "at peace" would be synonymous, but I'd prefer sticking closer to the original: "being quiet, still, peaceful" (quies) has a different connotation than "being at rest" (requies) in my mind

Quote from Kalosyni

Here is a very long way of saying it (lol):

For an eternity I did not exist, but then I was born.
I died, and now for an eternity I will no longer exist.
Nothing of me remains to be concerned about this.

The kids these days say "Yolo" (You only live once)

(PS: This all reminds me of how much I'm waiting for the Herculaneum scrolls!)