VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

Don can you tell how that proclaiming/exclaiming compares with Martin Ferguson Smith's translation of Diogenes of Oenoanda's "shouting" in fragment 32?

Fr. 32

... [the latter] being as malicious as the former.

I shall discuss folly shortly, the virtues and pleasure now.

If, gentlemen, the point at issue between these people and us involved inquiry into «what is the means of happiness?» and they wanted to say «the virtues» (which would actually be true), it would be unnecessary to take any other step than to agree with them about this, without more ado. But since, as I say, the issue is not «what is the means of happiness?» but «what is happiness and what is the ultimate goal of our nature?», I say both now and always, shouting out loudly to all Greeks and non-Greeks, that pleasure is the end of the best mode of life, while the virtues, which are inopportunely messed about by these people (being transferred from the place of the means to that of the end), are in no way an end, but the means to the end.

Quote from Don

I'd be curious what Bryan or Eikadistes or others make of the manuscript's πλειονος versus Usener's "correction." If we take the manuscript at its word, something like: we shall depart from life with/in the midst of/along with more beauty/nobility (μετα καλου πλειονος), exclaiming/proclaiming that we have lived well.

I have absolutely no idea. I genuinely can't transpose these fragments.

Here's my best attempt, which is utterly unhelpful:

This may as well be ancient Phoenician because I'm seeing Omegas with too many loops, and I don't understand why Kappas, Betas, and Taus are twice the height of the other letters, or why there seem to be spaces in the middle of words when there shouldn't be any spaces.

I'm curious what everyone else sees.

I clearly see a modern question mark [?] and one-half of a pair of parenthesis [ ( ] in the middle of a sentence with no sibling, and diacritics I've never seen before, and punctuation I cannot identify.

My conclusion is that Usener took MAJOR liberties, not only with translations, not only with his personal additions, but in the basic act of assigning symbols the wrong syllable.

Quote from Twentier

My conclusion is that Usener took MAJOR liberties, not only with translations, not only with his personal additions, but in the basic act of assigning symbols the wrong syllable.

Pretty close to the same conclusion DeWitt reached about Usener.

Again, though, I would really like to see anyone else's transpositions and advice about ... anything. Like, which of those symbols represents a Nu, because I am fairly familiar with Nus, and their very basic, ancient Greek miniscule ("v") ... I know they're in there, but none of those look a lowercase "v" to me, and that lets me know I have no idea what I'm talking about.

It is an interesting difference.

Here is Bailey's comment, calling Usener's change from πλείονος to παιῶνος "brilliant."

So as we know, he keeps παιῶνος:

^[Bailey] ...ἄπιμεν ἐκ τοῦ ζῆν μετὰ καλοῦ παιῶνος ἐπιφωνοῦντες ὡς [εὖ] ἡμῖν βεβίωται.

^[Bailey] …we will leave life crying aloud in a glorious triumph-song that we have lived well.

As you said, if we keep πλείονος, we have something like:

...ἄπιμεν ἐκ τοῦ ζῆν μετὰ καλοῦ πλείονος ἐπιφωνοῦντες ὡς εὖ ἡμῖν βεβίωται.

...we shall depart from life with more [of] good, proclaiming that we have lived well.

I think the phrase "μετὰ καλοῦ πλείονος" is somewhat unusual because "καλοῦ" is an adjective, and "πλείονος" is a comparative adjective, typically modifying a noun. We might expect "μετὰ πλείονος τοῦ καλοῦ" for "with more of the good." But I agree this may not be sufficient reason to divert from the manuscript.

Anyone familiar with the reference to Aristophanes? The suggestion that there was an intentional reference to what happens at the end of it does seem something that is possible, so worth considering, if it is famous enough to be considered a common cultural reference.

Maybe in this case Usener is suggesting a reasonable possibility. At least it is good to know a potential basis for the suggestion.

Yes, if we take καλος substantively without an article it makes good sense. I also do not see what has led to so much agreement to throw out πλείονος. I feel like we are missing something.

For the quote referenced above by Bailey:

Aristophanes, Acharnians 1227:

CHORUS: You triumph then, brave champion; thine is the wine-skin!

DICAEOPOLIS: Follow me, singing “Triumph! Triumph!”

CHORUS: Aye! we will sing of thee, thee and thy sacred wine-skin, and we all, as we follow thee, will repeat in thine honour, “Triumph, Triumph!”

Quote from Don

Aristophanes ended his plays like that a lot.

A number of plays were ended explicitly saying "follow me singing triumph, triumph!" (??)

If so, then that helps further to understand Usener's point.

Yes, Don, I agree, without conflicting manuscript evidence to the contrary we should not get too imaginative. It seems the thinking at the time was that, given Vat.gr.1950 itself has errors, many therefore felt more free to try to find "a more original form," in a way that would be inexcusable for the P.Hercs.

For example, as we have seen, if we compare VS10 in Vat.gr.1950 vs. the better attested Clemens Alexandrinus, Stromata, 5.138, we see very different versions:

^Vat.gr.1950: Remember that, being mortal by nature and having received finite time, you ascended to considerations concerning nature as far as infinity and eternity, and you have seen 'the things that exist, the things that will exist, and the things existing before.'

^{Clemens Alexandrinus, Stromata, 5.138:} Although Metrodorus became an Epicurean, he said these things piously: "Menestratus, remember that, having been born mortal and having received a finite life, and having ascended with your soul up until the eternity and to the infinity of circumstances, you have even seen 'the things that will exist, and the things existing before.'"

^{Clemens Alexandrinus, Stromata, 5.138:} Μητροδώρου τε καίτοι Ἐπικουρείου γενομένου ἐνθέως ταῦτά γε εἰρηκότος: "Μέμνησο, Μενέστρατε, διότι θνητὸςφὺς καὶ λαβὼν βίον ὡρισμένον, ἀναβὰς τῇ ψυχῇ ἕως ἐπὶ τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ τὴν ἀπειρίαν τῶν πραγμάτων, κατεῖδες καὶ 'τά τ' ἐσσόμενα, πρό τ' ἔοντα.'"

VS47. "I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well." (Bailey translation)

I am wondering if it literally says "spitting contempt on life" or what exactly it said?

Don  Bryan  Eikadistes