1. New
  2. Home
    1. Get Started - Activities
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Member Announcements
    7. Site Map
    8. Quizzes
    9. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    10. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  3. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  4. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. New
  2. Home
  3. Wiki
  4. Forum
  5. Podcast
  6. Texts
  7. Gallery
  8. Calendar
  9. Other
  1. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Ethics - How To Live As An Epicurean
  4. By Pleasure We Mean All Experience That Is Not Painful
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Pleasure, absence of pain and PD03

  • Godfrey
  • September 3, 2023 at 11:13 AM
  • Go to last post
Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Online
    Godfrey
    Epicurist
    Points
    12,212
    Posts
    1,709
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    85.0 %
    Bookmarks
    1
    • September 3, 2023 at 11:13 AM
    • #1

    This probably belongs under "posts by Captain Obvious", but I was just thinking about PD03 and it occurred to me that that particular PD is, among other things, an instruction for removing pain. The reading that absence of pain leads to pleasure has the doctrine backwards. (One might credit Cicero with having a hand in this....)

    PD03: The limit of enjoyment is the removal of all pains. Wherever and for however long pleasure is present, there is neither bodily pain nor mental distress. St-Andre translation

    Reading the second sentence in the most straightforward way says that if you're experiencing pleasure then you're not experiencing pain. It doesn't say that the way to obtain pleasure is to remove all pain, although that's a logical implication of what is said. It's not a Buddhist idea either; it's more of a refutation of the idea that you relieve suffering by removing desire.

    If one is attempting to remove a particular pain, following Epicurus' advice here may lead to a series of realizations on the nature of pleasure. One might start with a very fleeting pleasure, discover that eventually that dissipates or leads to further pain (I've sometimes referred to this as papering over pain with pleasure). Continuing to pursue pleasure in the attempt to remove particular pains eventually leads to a deeper understanding of pleasure and its optimal role in one's life. This has nothing to do with pursuing the absence of pain in order to obtain pleasure, in fact it's the exact opposite approach.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,623
    Posts
    14,049
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • September 3, 2023 at 11:37 AM
    • #2

    Let me bootstrap onto that comment something I was about to post separately.

    First, I think you're right that this amounts to a prescription that the best way to avoid pain is to be sure that you're experiencing pleasure. Maybe that is Captain Obvious when you admit that there are only two feelings, pleasure and pain, and that when you are experiencing one you are not experiencing the other, but that's an Epicurean position (that there are only two) which forms the heart of some of Cicero's key arguments against Epicurus.

    Here's something we discussed from Cicero in today's podcast:

    Quote from Cicero On Ends Reid Book 1 VII 25

    What pleasure do you, Torquatus, or what does our friend Triarius here derive from literature, from records and the investigation of historical facts, from conning the poets, from learning by heart so laboriously so many lines? And do not say to me “Why, these very actions bring me pleasure, as theirs did to the Torquati!”

    Never indeed did Epicurus or Metrodorus or any one possessed of any wisdom or any knowledge of the tenets of your school ever maintain such a position by such arguments

    This is a blatant misrepresentation of Epicurus. If ANY activity which does not bring pain is pleasant, then reading any literature, or poetry, or history is going to being AT LEAST the type of pleasure that the hand experiences when it is not in pain (per the Chryssipus argument) and of course it is generally going to bring about a much more stimulating pleasure if it is good poetry, literature, or history.

    It should be obvious that when we are in physical pain we often seek mental pleasure as a way of getting our minds off that pain, but Cicero seems to want to allege that Epicureans seek nothing but immediate sensory bodily pleasure.

    This is blatantly false under Epicurean theory, and Cicero should (and likely did) know better.

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,871
    Posts
    5,551
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • September 3, 2023 at 2:25 PM
    • #3
    Quote from Cassius

    that's an Epicurean position (that there are only two)

    That's also a position of modern neuropsychology if you look at it as positive and negative affect (coupled with high or low arousal). We are *always* experiencing one affect or the other.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Does The Wise Man Groan and Cry Out When On The Rack / Under Torture / In Extreme Pain? 17

      • Cassius
      • October 28, 2019 at 9:06 AM
      • General Discussion
      • Cassius
      • June 18, 2025 at 3:33 PM
    2. Replies
      17
      Views
      1k
      17
    3. Don

      June 18, 2025 at 3:33 PM
    1. New Translation of Epicurus' Works 1

      • Thanks 2
      • Eikadistes
      • June 16, 2025 at 3:50 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Eikadistes
      • June 16, 2025 at 6:32 PM
    2. Replies
      1
      Views
      227
      1
    3. Cassius

      June 16, 2025 at 6:32 PM
    1. Superstition and Friday the 13th 6

      • Like 2
      • Kalosyni
      • June 13, 2025 at 8:46 AM
      • General Discussion
      • Kalosyni
      • June 16, 2025 at 3:40 PM
    2. Replies
      6
      Views
      350
      6
    3. Eikadistes

      June 16, 2025 at 3:40 PM
    1. Epicurean Emporium 9

      • Like 3
      • Eikadistes
      • January 25, 2025 at 10:35 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Eikadistes
      • June 16, 2025 at 3:37 PM
    2. Replies
      9
      Views
      1.7k
      9
    3. Eikadistes

      June 16, 2025 at 3:37 PM
    1. The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura 2

      • Thanks 1
      • Kalosyni
      • June 12, 2025 at 12:03 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Kalosyni
      • June 16, 2025 at 11:42 AM
    2. Replies
      2
      Views
      299
      2
    3. Kalosyni

      June 16, 2025 at 11:42 AM

Latest Posts

  • Episode 285 - The Significance Of The Limits Of Pain

    Patrikios June 18, 2025 at 5:09 PM
  • Does The Wise Man Groan and Cry Out When On The Rack / Under Torture / In Extreme Pain?

    Don June 18, 2025 at 3:33 PM
  • Reconciling Cosma Raimondi and Diogenes Laertius On the Bull of Phalaris Question

    Cassius June 18, 2025 at 8:28 AM
  • Welcome Lamar

    Cassius June 17, 2025 at 11:00 AM
  • New Translation of Epicurus' Works

    Cassius June 16, 2025 at 6:32 PM
  • Superstition and Friday the 13th

    Eikadistes June 16, 2025 at 3:40 PM
  • New "TWENTIERS" Website

    Eikadistes June 16, 2025 at 3:38 PM
  • Epicurean Emporium

    Eikadistes June 16, 2025 at 3:37 PM
  • The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura

    Kalosyni June 16, 2025 at 11:42 AM
  • Is All Desire Painful? How Would Epicurus Answer?

    TauPhi June 15, 2025 at 9:23 PM

Similar Threads

  • Ruminations on leading with “Pleasure and Pain as the Guide” v “The Goal is Pleasure”

    • Godfrey
    • June 7, 2023 at 9:10 PM
    • Ethics - General Discussion

Tags

  • Pleasure
  • Pain
  • PD01

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options
foo
Save Quote