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Convincing Demonstrations of the God(s)

  • Eikadistes
  • August 22, 2023 at 2:34 PM
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  • Eikadistes
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    • August 22, 2023 at 2:34 PM
    • #1

    Philodemus concedes that “...no one | has been prolific in finding convincing demonstrations for the existence of the gods; nevertheless all men, with the exception of some madmen, worship them, as do we…” (On Piety, Col. 23, Lines 649-656)

    I gather from this quote that Epicurus justified some of his theology based on the (then) newly-discovered religious traditions of peoples throughout Alexander's Hellenized, Eurasian empire. That "all people [...] worship them" is an empirical observation made of other cultures, and I have often thought that Epicurus' entire theological platform was an attempt to ground all human behavior in naturalism, and his theological propositions seem to adequately explain the diversity of religious thought that Alexander and others (like Pyrrho) would have encountered during his tours.

    I am struck by the first sentiment, that "no one has been prolific in finding convincing demonstrations for the existence of the gods", because ... well, thats precisely how I look at the modern world. It also seems to lend some credence to the non-Extraterrestrial interpretation of Epicurus' gods, that our only experience with divinity is within the continuum of the human mind, and that their "real existence" is moot beyond being an inspiring icon.

    Still, even within the context of a kind of dogmatic polytheism, sentiments like "no one has been prolific in finding convincing demonstrations for the existence of the gods" really provide some (as I see it) much-needed nuance to the context and function of Epicurean theology.

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    • August 23, 2023 at 5:36 AM
    • #2

    Great find. I obviously need to try and get my hands on Obbink's translation of On Piety again.

    I think your suggestion of this being a reaction to the Greeks' contact with other peoples' religions makes sense, although they would have been aware of the Egyptians and others since the time of Herodotus.

    For additional context of that excerpt from Philodemus:

    DCLP/Trismegistos 62400 = LDAB 3563

    Column 23

    P.Herc. 1077 col. 15

    Engraved 1817-1822 by Giovanni Battista Casanova

    [ ̣ ̣ ̣]μενη̣[ ̣] ἐναργει-

    [ ̣ ̣ ἀ]ν̣αμενοῦντος

    [ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]να, καὶ πάν-

    τας [κ]α̣τ' ἀνάγκας

    5 [οἳ ταὐτὸ]ν̣ ἔγραψαν ἀ-

    [ξίους] γε προαιρέ-

    σ[εω]ς ἕνεκα θαυμά-

    ζεσθαι καὶ μὴ διὰ τὴν

    <ἀ>δυναμίαν ἀνοσίου̣[ς]

    10 νομίζεσθαι· πάντας

    δὲ ἀνθρώπους ὥ-

    ρα{ι} λέγειν ἀνοσίους, ἐ-

    πειδήπερ οὐδεὶς

    εἱκνουμένας πε-

    15 ρὶ τ[οῦ θ]ε̣οὺς ὑπάρ - ›

    χε[ιν τὰς ἀπο]δ̣είξεις

    εὐπ̣[όρησ]ε̣ν· ὅμως

    δὲ [σέβ]ονται πάν-

    τε[ς εἰ μὴ παρ]άκοποί τι-

    20 νε[ς αὐτούς, κα]θάπερ

    ἡμ̣[εῖς· ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]κ[ ̣]α

    με[- ca.10 -]λ̣ιψαι

    το[- ca.11 -]νη

    τ[- ca.13 -]

    25 κα̣[ ̣]μεν[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]νως

    [οὕ]τως [- ca.10 -]

    [ ̣]ω γ̣[- ca.13 -]

    [οὐ]χ ὑπ̣[- ca.10 -]

    [ ̣]ο πρὸς τα[ ̣ ̣ ̣] παρ

    Edit: Oh, I forgot to add that Hiram posted several essays on On Piety, including:

    Reasonings about Philodemus’ On Piety (Part I) | Society of Friends of Epicurus

    I don't necessarily agree with all his conclusions, but he also gives the full quote:

    It would be fitting to describe all men as impious, inasmuch as no one has been prolific in finding convincing demonstrations for the existence of the gods; nevertheless all men, with the exception of some madmen, worship them, as do we.

    Edit 2: Since everyone can see the holes, I want to give a better idea of the reconstruction of the text, so I'm going to replace the educated guesses of Obbink with O below...

    [ ̣ ̣ ̣]μενη̣[ ̣] ἐναργει-

    [ ̣ ̣ O]ν̣αμενοῦντος

    [ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]να, καὶ πάν-

    τας Oα̣τ' ἀνάγκας

    5 [OOOOOOO]ν̣ ἔγραψαν ἀ-

    [OOOOO] γε προαιρέ-

    σ[OO]ς ἕνεκα θαυμά-

    ζεσθαι καὶ μὴ διὰ τὴν

    δυναμίαν ἀνοσίου̣[O]

    10 νομίζεσθαι· πάντας

    δὲ ἀνθρώπους ὥ-

    ρα{ι} λέγειν ἀνοσίους, ἐ-

    πειδήπερ οὐδεὶς

    εἱκνουμένας πε-

    15 ρὶ τ[OOO]ε̣οὺς ὑπάρ - ›

    χε[OOOOOOOO]δ̣είξεις

    εὐπ̣[OOOO]ε̣ν· ὅμως

    δὲ [OOO]ονται πάν-

    τε[OOOOOOOO]άκοποί τι-

    20 νε[OOOOOOOOO]θάπερ

    ἡμ̣[OOOOOOOOO]κ[O]α

    με[OOOOOOOOOO]λ̣ιψαι

    το[OOOOOOOOOOO]νη

    τ[OOOOOOOOOOOOO]

    25 κα̣[ ̣O]μεν[OOO]νως

    [οὕ]τως [OOOOOOOOOO]

    [ ̣]ω γ̣[OOOOOOOOOOOOO]

    [οὐ]χ ὑπ̣[OOOOOOOOOO]

    [OO ̣]ο πρὸς τα[OOO] παρ

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