1. Home
    1. Study Guide
    2. Community Standards
    3. Site Map
    4. Quizzes
    5. Articles On Physics
    6. Articles On Canonics
    7. Articles On Ethics
    8. All Articles
    9. Elli's Blog Posts
    10. Kalosyni's Blog
    11. All Blog Posts
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Files
    4. Search Assistance
    5. Foundations
    6. Navigation Outlines
    7. Reading List
    8. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Ancient Texts Forum
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Forum Shortcuts
    8. Forum Navigation Map
    9. Featured
    10. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Torquatus On Ethics
    3. Velleius On Divinity
    4. Diogenes Laertius
    5. Principal Doctrines
    6. Vatican Collection
    7. Lucretius
    8. Herodotus
    9. Pythocles
    10. Menoeceus
    11. Fragments - Usener Collection
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. More
    1. Featured Content
    2. Calendar
      1. Upcoming Events List
      2. Zooms - General Info
      3. Fourth Sunday Meet-&-Greet
      4. Sunday Weekly Zoom
      5. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
      6. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options
  1. Home
    1. Study Guide
    2. Community Standards
    3. Site Map
    4. Quizzes
    5. Articles On Physics
    6. Articles On Canonics
    7. Articles On Ethics
    8. All Articles
    9. Elli's Blog Posts
    10. Kalosyni's Blog
    11. All Blog Posts
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Files
    4. Search Assistance
    5. Foundations
    6. Navigation Outlines
    7. Reading List
    8. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Ancient Texts Forum
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Forum Shortcuts
    8. Forum Navigation Map
    9. Featured
    10. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Torquatus On Ethics
    3. Velleius On Divinity
    4. Diogenes Laertius
    5. Principal Doctrines
    6. Vatican Collection
    7. Lucretius
    8. Herodotus
    9. Pythocles
    10. Menoeceus
    11. Fragments - Usener Collection
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. More
    1. Featured Content
    2. Calendar
      1. Upcoming Events List
      2. Zooms - General Info
      3. Fourth Sunday Meet-&-Greet
      4. Sunday Weekly Zoom
      5. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
      6. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Study Guide
    2. Community Standards
    3. Site Map
    4. Quizzes
    5. Articles On Physics
    6. Articles On Canonics
    7. Articles On Ethics
    8. All Articles
    9. Elli's Blog Posts
    10. Kalosyni's Blog
    11. All Blog Posts
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Files
    4. Search Assistance
    5. Foundations
    6. Navigation Outlines
    7. Reading List
    8. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Ancient Texts Forum
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Forum Shortcuts
    8. Forum Navigation Map
    9. Featured
    10. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Torquatus On Ethics
    3. Velleius On Divinity
    4. Diogenes Laertius
    5. Principal Doctrines
    6. Vatican Collection
    7. Lucretius
    8. Herodotus
    9. Pythocles
    10. Menoeceus
    11. Fragments - Usener Collection
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. More
    1. Featured Content
    2. Calendar
      1. Upcoming Events List
      2. Zooms - General Info
      3. Fourth Sunday Meet-&-Greet
      4. Sunday Weekly Zoom
      5. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
      6. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. General Discussion - Uncategorized
  4. Uncategorized Discussion (General)
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Convincing Demonstrations of the God(s)

  • Eikadistes
  • August 22, 2023 at 2:34 PM
  • Go to last post
  • Eikadistes
    Guest
    • August 22, 2023 at 2:34 PM
    • #1

    Philodemus concedes that “...no one | has been prolific in finding convincing demonstrations for the existence of the gods; nevertheless all men, with the exception of some madmen, worship them, as do we…” (On Piety, Col. 23, Lines 649-656)

    I gather from this quote that Epicurus justified some of his theology based on the (then) newly-discovered religious traditions of peoples throughout Alexander's Hellenized, Eurasian empire. That "all people [...] worship them" is an empirical observation made of other cultures, and I have often thought that Epicurus' entire theological platform was an attempt to ground all human behavior in naturalism, and his theological propositions seem to adequately explain the diversity of religious thought that Alexander and others (like Pyrrho) would have encountered during his tours.

    I am struck by the first sentiment, that "no one has been prolific in finding convincing demonstrations for the existence of the gods", because ... well, thats precisely how I look at the modern world. It also seems to lend some credence to the non-Extraterrestrial interpretation of Epicurus' gods, that our only experience with divinity is within the continuum of the human mind, and that their "real existence" is moot beyond being an inspiring icon.

    Still, even within the context of a kind of dogmatic polytheism, sentiments like "no one has been prolific in finding convincing demonstrations for the existence of the gods" really provide some (as I see it) much-needed nuance to the context and function of Epicurean theology.

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    42,939
    Posts
    6,052
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • August 23, 2023 at 5:36 AM
    • #2

    Great find. I obviously need to try and get my hands on Obbink's translation of On Piety again.

    I think your suggestion of this being a reaction to the Greeks' contact with other peoples' religions makes sense, although they would have been aware of the Egyptians and others since the time of Herodotus.

    For additional context of that excerpt from Philodemus:

    DCLP/Trismegistos 62400 = LDAB 3563

    Column 23

    P.Herc. 1077 col. 15

    Engraved 1817-1822 by Giovanni Battista Casanova

    [ ̣ ̣ ̣]μενη̣[ ̣] ἐναργει-

    [ ̣ ̣ ἀ]ν̣αμενοῦντος

    [ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]να, καὶ πάν-

    τας [κ]α̣τ' ἀνάγκας

    5 [οἳ ταὐτὸ]ν̣ ἔγραψαν ἀ-

    [ξίους] γε προαιρέ-

    σ[εω]ς ἕνεκα θαυμά-

    ζεσθαι καὶ μὴ διὰ τὴν

    <ἀ>δυναμίαν ἀνοσίου̣[ς]

    10 νομίζεσθαι· πάντας

    δὲ ἀνθρώπους ὥ-

    ρα{ι} λέγειν ἀνοσίους, ἐ-

    πειδήπερ οὐδεὶς

    εἱκνουμένας πε-

    15 ρὶ τ[οῦ θ]ε̣οὺς ὑπάρ - ›

    χε[ιν τὰς ἀπο]δ̣είξεις

    εὐπ̣[όρησ]ε̣ν· ὅμως

    δὲ [σέβ]ονται πάν-

    τε[ς εἰ μὴ παρ]άκοποί τι-

    20 νε[ς αὐτούς, κα]θάπερ

    ἡμ̣[εῖς· ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]κ[ ̣]α

    με[- ca.10 -]λ̣ιψαι

    το[- ca.11 -]νη

    τ[- ca.13 -]

    25 κα̣[ ̣]μεν[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]νως

    [οὕ]τως [- ca.10 -]

    [ ̣]ω γ̣[- ca.13 -]

    [οὐ]χ ὑπ̣[- ca.10 -]

    [ ̣]ο πρὸς τα[ ̣ ̣ ̣] παρ

    Edit: Oh, I forgot to add that Hiram posted several essays on On Piety, including:

    Reasonings about Philodemus’ On Piety (Part I) | Society of Friends of Epicurus

    I don't necessarily agree with all his conclusions, but he also gives the full quote:

    It would be fitting to describe all men as impious, inasmuch as no one has been prolific in finding convincing demonstrations for the existence of the gods; nevertheless all men, with the exception of some madmen, worship them, as do we.

    Edit 2: Since everyone can see the holes, I want to give a better idea of the reconstruction of the text, so I'm going to replace the educated guesses of Obbink with O below...

    [ ̣ ̣ ̣]μενη̣[ ̣] ἐναργει-

    [ ̣ ̣ O]ν̣αμενοῦντος

    [ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣]να, καὶ πάν-

    τας Oα̣τ' ἀνάγκας

    5 [OOOOOOO]ν̣ ἔγραψαν ἀ-

    [OOOOO] γε προαιρέ-

    σ[OO]ς ἕνεκα θαυμά-

    ζεσθαι καὶ μὴ διὰ τὴν

    δυναμίαν ἀνοσίου̣[O]

    10 νομίζεσθαι· πάντας

    δὲ ἀνθρώπους ὥ-

    ρα{ι} λέγειν ἀνοσίους, ἐ-

    πειδήπερ οὐδεὶς

    εἱκνουμένας πε-

    15 ρὶ τ[OOO]ε̣οὺς ὑπάρ - ›

    χε[OOOOOOOO]δ̣είξεις

    εὐπ̣[OOOO]ε̣ν· ὅμως

    δὲ [OOO]ονται πάν-

    τε[OOOOOOOO]άκοποί τι-

    20 νε[OOOOOOOOO]θάπερ

    ἡμ̣[OOOOOOOOO]κ[O]α

    με[OOOOOOOOOO]λ̣ιψαι

    το[OOOOOOOOOOO]νη

    τ[OOOOOOOOOOOOO]

    25 κα̣[ ̣O]μεν[OOO]νως

    [οὕ]τως [OOOOOOOOOO]

    [ ̣]ω γ̣[OOOOOOOOOOOOO]

    [οὐ]χ ὑπ̣[OOOOOOOOOO]

    [OO ̣]ο πρὸς τα[OOO] παρ

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

Here is a list of suggested search strategies:

  • Website Overview page - clickable links arrranged by cards.
  • Forum Main Page - list of forums and subforums arranged by topic. Threads are posted according to relevant topics. The "Uncategorized subforum" contains threads which do not fall into any existing topic (also contains older "unfiled" threads which will soon be moved).
  • Search Tool - icon is located on the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere."
  • Search By Key Tags - curated to show frequently-searched topics.
  • Full Tag List - an alphabetical list of all tags.

Resources

  1. Getting Started At EpicureanFriends
  2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
  3. The Major Doctrines of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  4. Introductory Videos
  5. Wiki
  6. Lucretius Today Podcast
    1. Podcast Episode Guide
  7. Key Epicurean Texts
    1. Chart Of Key Quotes
    2. Outline Of Key Quotes
    3. Side-By-Side Diogenes Laertius X (Bio And All Key Writings of Epicurus)
    4. Side-By-Side Lucretius - On The Nature Of Things
    5. Side-By-Side Torquatus On Ethics
    6. Side-By-Side Velleius on Divinity
    7. Lucretius Topical Outline
    8. Usener Fragment Collection
  8. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. FAQ Discussions
  9. Full List of Forums
    1. Physics Discussions
    2. Canonics Discussions
    3. Ethics Discussions
    4. All Recent Forum Activities
  10. Image Gallery
  11. Featured Articles
  12. Featured Blog Posts
  13. Quiz Section
  14. Activities Calendar
  15. Special Resource Pages
  16. File Database
  17. Site Map
    1. Home

Frequently Used Forums

  • Frequently Asked / Introductory Questions
  • News And Announcements
  • Lucretius Today Podcast
  • Physics (The Nature of the Universe)
  • Canonics (The Tests Of Truth)
  • Ethics (How To Live)
  • Against Determinism
  • Against Skepticism
  • The "Meaning of Life" Question
  • Uncategorized Discussion
  • Comparisons With Other Philosophies
  • Historical Figures
  • Ancient Writers and Texts
  • Decline of The Ancient Epicurean Age
  • Unsolved Questions of Epicurean History
  • Welcome New Participants
  • Events - Activism - Outreach
  • Full Forum List

Latest Posts

  • Episode 349 - EATAQ31 - Objections To "The Evident" - Not Yet Recorded

    Cassius August 29, 2026 at 4:33 PM
  • Discussion of Article - "Epicurus And The Pleasure Of Rebelling Against Plato"

    Cassius August 29, 2026 at 3:59 PM
  • Episode 348 - EATAQ30 - Neither Logic Nor Logos Are Shortcuts To Truth

    Cassius August 28, 2026 at 3:32 PM
  • Updates To Home Page - New "Featured Articles" and "Featured Podcasts" Sections

    Cassius August 25, 2026 at 9:10 PM
  • Risk Aversion / Risk Management / Risk Avoidance / Risk Assessment in Epicurean Philosophy

    Patrikios August 25, 2026 at 3:08 PM
  • Aristotle on Friendship (Article)

    Kalosyni August 24, 2026 at 8:13 PM
  • Joy through Engaging in Hobbies

    Kalosyni August 24, 2026 at 12:22 PM
  • The Joys of Experiencing Novelty

    Kalosyni August 23, 2026 at 3:32 PM
  • Episode 347 - EATAQ29 - If You Think True And False Are Impossible To Find, Then Don't Talk To Me About True And False

    Cassius August 22, 2026 at 10:53 AM
  • John Dryden translation of Lucretius

    Kalosyni August 20, 2026 at 9:03 PM

Frequently Used Tags

In addition to posting in the appropriate forums, participants are encouraged to reference the following tags in their posts:

  • #Physics
    • #Atomism
    • #Gods
    • #Images
    • #Infinity
    • #Eternity
    • #Life
    • #Death
  • #Canonics
    • #Knowledge
    • #Scepticism
  • #Ethics

    • #Pleasure
    • #Pain
    • #Engagement
    • #EpicureanLiving
    • #Happiness
    • #Virtue
      • #Wisdom
      • #Temperance
      • #Courage
      • #Justice
      • #Honesty
      • #Faith (Confidence)
      • #Suavity
      • #Consideration
      • #Hope
      • #Gratitude
      • #Friendship



Click Here To Search All Tags

To Suggest Additions To This List Click Here

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
    3. Rules, Terms & Policies
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.26
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design