Thoughts on and translations of VS41

    γελᾶν ἅμα δεῖ [one must] καὶ φιλοσοφεῖν καὶ οἰκονομεῖν καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς οἰκειώμασι χρῆσθαι καὶ μηδαμῇ λήγειν τὰς ἐκ τῆς ὀρθῆς φιλοσοφίας φωνὰς ἀφιέντας.


    This sounds something like mindfulness! Do all these things while philosophizing. Note that several of the alternate translations below put philosophize first when the first word in Greek is γελᾶν, the infinitive of γελάω "laugh." So the emphasis is on the laughing first. The translations should really be something like: One must laugh and - at the same time - pursue the love wisdom, administer the rest of one's household affairs,...


    41. At one and the same time we must philosophize, laugh, and manage our household and other business, while never ceasing to proclaim the words of true philosophy. http://epicurus.net/en/vatican.html


    41. One must philosophize and at the same time laugh and take care of one’s household and use the rest of our personal goods, and never stop proclaiming the utterances of correct philosophy. https://churchofepicurus.wordpress.com/vatican/

    VS41. We must laugh and philosophize at the same time and do our household duties and employ our other faculties, and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy. https://newepicurean.com/sugge…er_11_The_Vatican_Sayings

    Quote from Don

    The translations should really be something like: One must laugh and - at the same time - pursue the love wisdom, administer the rest of one's household affairs,...

    If you start detecting patterns on who seems to follow your literalist interpretations most regularly, please be sure to say so.

    Quote from Don

    Are you calling me a fundamentalist?? ^^


    If the ancient Epicureans can praisingly and productively call entities who are neither supernatural nor omniscient nor omnipotent (and probably not inherently deathless either) "gods" -

    and if the ancient Epicureans can call the normal and natural and pain-free [state of] functioning of the mind and body "pleasure" -

    and if the ancient Epicureans can call "virtue" whatever tools lead us to happy living -


    then I can easily productively and praisingly call you a "fundamentalist," in the best sense of the word! ;)

    Metrodori Epicurei Fragmenta collegit scriptoris incerti Epicurei Commentarium moralem, subiecit Alfredus Koerte : Metrodorus, of Lampsacus, d. 277 B.C : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
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    archive.org

    Quote

    "I wrote down the opinion of Metrodorus, because it is evident that he had most diligently warned the members to give attention to the management of the family affairs. See p. 544. although this statement certainly cannot be attributed to him."

    Hi, Don ! Today we were talking about this VS and I shared a philological question with Cassius , Joshua , Kalosyni and Steve.
    I have a translation that follows a slightly different version (I think it's only one word) from that used by Bailey, Arrighetti, Long and Sedley, etc. It's this:

    Quote

    Γελᾶν ἅμα δεῖν καὶ φιλοσοφεῖν καὶ οἰκονομεῖν καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς οἰκειώμασι χρῆσθαι καὶ μηδαμῇ λέγειν τὰς ἐκ τῆς ὀργῆς φιλοσοφίας φωνὰς ἀφιέντας.

    This is Alberto Enrique Álvarez' translation (the Spanish guy who wrote a dissertation on the Vatican Sayings):

    Quote

    "We must laugh as well as philosophize, manage the house and take care of the rest of our private affairs, and by no means express angry maxims when we declare the maxims of philosophy."

    And these are some of his comments:

    "The sentence has undergone numerous modifications. In our version we have opted, like Bollack, to keep the textual version of the manuscript, since it has a satisfactory sense and syntax, and in the conviction that, in this case, it is possible to keep the transmitted text without variants.

    [...]

    This version [Bailey's version] recovers the importance of laughter as a vital mark of epicureanism; but, by replacing ὀργῆς ("anger", "wrath") by the adjective ὀρθῆς ("straight"), the axis of opposites laughter / wrath (γελᾶν / ὀργή) that articulates the sentence is lost, and the text is structured in such a way that the main syntactic units do not reflect contents of equal hierarchy. As we interpret it, from the main verb δεῖ ("it is necessary") two infinitives depend at the same syntactic level: γελᾶν ("to laugh") and λήγειν ("to stop"); and, in turn, dependent on γελᾶν ("laugh") and introduced by the preposition/temporal adverb ἅμα ("at the same time") we find φιλοσοφεῖν ("philosophize"), οἰκονομεῖν ("manage the house") and χρῆσθαι ("take care of").

    Now, the philosophically relevant doctrine is exhausted in the infinitive group γελᾶν ("to laugh"), while the branch of λήγειν ("to cease") remains practically as an addition that has little to do with the previous clause and by itself possesses little philosophical entity.
    In the version we offer, the sentence opposes laughter (γελᾶν) to anger and, in general, to violent passions (ὀργή) as philosophical-vital moods."


    I don't know if his comments or the translation are correct. I think it can be interesting that you tell us your point of view.

    I am *always* open for digging into these translation questions! Thanks for the opportunity.

    First, we return to the manuscript:

    DigiVatLib

    And for ease of comparison (differences in transcription underlined):

    Bailey:

    Γελᾶν ἅμα δεῖ καὶ φιλοσοφεῖν καὶ οἰκονομεῖν καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς οἰκειώμασι χρῆσθαι καὶ μηδαμῇ λήγειν τὰς ἐκ τῆς ὀρθῆς φιλοσοφίας φωνὰς ἀφιέντας.

    Alberto Enrique Álvarez:

    Γελᾶν ἅμα δεῖν καὶ φιλοσοφεῖν καὶ οἰκονομεῖν καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς οἰκειώμασι χρῆσθαι καὶ μηδαμῇ λέγειν τὰς ἐκ τῆς ὀργῆς φιλοσοφίας φωνὰς ἀφιέντας.

    You're right! One letter and one word difference. Now, what word is in the manuscript??

    Well! Would you look at that! ... ὀργῆς !!! That third letter is *clearly* a gamma γ and not a theta θ, but Bailey et al., of course, knew what was in the scribe's mind when he wrote that. Nope! Unless there is a question of what letter is in a manuscript, I am not amenable to the idea of "correcting" texts if a plausible translation can be made from *what is actually written*!

    So, I fully agree with Álvarez's transcription. This just continues to confirm to me that we absolutely HAVE TO go back to the manuscripts when they are available. And I like Álvarez's point about the juxtaposition of laughter and anger. Bailey et al. change the word to ορθης (orthes) "right, correct" (as in ortho-dox) to make it easier on themselves, I think. I'm a little unsure about the use of "maxims" in Álvarez's translation, so I'd like to break the manuscript line apart and dig into the grammar briefly...

    ...καὶ μηδαμῇ λέγειν "and never, ever (strong negation) to say...

    ...τὰς .. φιλοσοφίας φωνὰς ἀφιέντας. "the letting loose philosophical sounds"

    ἐκ τῆς ὀργῆς "from (or "done by" or "out of") anger"


    The "maxim" of Alvarez comes from φωνας:

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φων-ή

    LSJ has:

    III. phrase, saying, “τὴν Σιμωνίδου φ.” Id.Prt. 341b; “ἡ τοῦ Σωκράτους φ.” Plu.2.106b, cf. 330f, etc.; of formulae, “στοιχειώματα καὶ φ.” Epicur.Ep.1p.4U., cf. Sent.Vat.41 (= Metrod. Fr.59); “αἱ σκεπτικαὶ φ.” S.E.P.1.14, cf. Jul.Or.5.162b, etc.


    but I think that citation of Sent. Vat. 41 could predicated on the orthes of Bailey et al. But really all the word can mean is voice, cry, sound, etc. It's where we get out English "phone, phono-."


    This text translates ἀφιέντας as "overlook":

    XX. For Polystratus
    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>be saved by this plea, and might obtain our due reward at your hands. And for the sake of other people also you ought to…
    www.loebclassics.com


    So, I can get the clunky literalish translation:


    "One must laugh and seek wisdom and tend to one's home life and use one's other goods; and never, ever let loose speaking philosophical sayings out of anger."


    ... or something with that idea.

    Thank you very much for your answer, Don!


    Quote from Don

    I'm not sure if you shared Alvarez's work before or not, but (at the risk of repeating)

    I don't remember, I think I shared it only in the chat of one of the zoom meetings. XD


    By the way, today Joshua proposed a possible collection or list of texts about Epicureanism in languages different from English. Possibly Alvarez's thesis can be one of those texts. :)

    Álvarez' translation neatly resolves most contradictions against the big picture of Epicurus' philosophy, which were described in:

    Thread
    Translations of VS 41
    A: "We must laugh and philosophize at the same time and do our household duties and employ our other faculties, and never
    cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy." (as quoted here, on the Epicurean Friends page)

    B: "At one and the same time we must philosophize, laugh, and manage our household and other business, while never ceasing to proclaim the words of true philosophy." (as quoted in a post in the FB EP page from June 2017)

    C: "One shall laugh and at the same time philosophize,…
    Martin

    Alberto Enrique Álvarez:

    Γελᾶν ἅμα δεῖν καὶ φιλοσοφεῖν καὶ οἰκονομεῖν καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς οἰκειώμασι χρῆσθαι καὶ μηδαμῇ λέγειν τὰς ἐκ τῆς ὀργῆς φιλοσοφίας φωνὰς ἀφιέντας.


    I'd like to briefly look at the first part of that VS:

    Γελᾶν ἅμα δεῖν καὶ φιλοσοφεῖν καὶ οἰκονομεῖν καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς οἰκειώμασι χρῆσθαι...

    Using δεῖν, Álvarez's transcription which uses what the manuscript has: δεῖν with a final nu ν.

    Using I find it interesting that there are then parallel infinitives:

    δεῖν

    φιλοσοφεῖν

    οἰκονομεῖν

    and λέγειν

    Γελᾶν is also the infinitive form of γελάω "to laugh"

    δεῖν carries the idea of "it behoves one to, it is necessary to, one must" but not necessarily any moral obligation which is carried but χρή which shows up in here with χρῆσθαι

    So...

    "At the same time, it behoves one to laugh and 'to love and practice wisdom,' and to tend to one's home life and to make proper use of one's other goods; and to never, ever speak philosophical noises vented out of anger."


    Demosthenes actually uses a construction similar to VS41:

    Demosthenes, Philippic 2, section 34

    ὁρῶ γὰρ ὡς τὰ πόλλ᾽ ἐνίους οὐκ εἰς τοὺς αἰτίους, ἀλλ᾽ εἰς τοὺς ὑπὸ χεῖρα μάλιστα τὴν ὀργὴν ἀφιέντας.

    for I observe that people vent their wrath as a rule, not on those who are to blame, but chiefly on those who are within their reach.

    Onenski and Don :


    This rendering -- clearly based on the Greek text -- is dramatically different from our received English translations (which seem to command continual spouting of philosophical dicta)! And I think Martin is right in terms of contradictions. All in all, I think, a much more congenial understanding -- as well as, apparently, more true to the original.


    Thank you, Fernando! And Don, for your confirmation. :) :love: