Letter to Menoikeus translation by Peter Saint-Andre

<τας εν κειμένας απολαύσεις> = <those that lie in enjoyments> [ those enjoyments that are out of limits] and this is what Epicurus means.

1) "Κείμαι" is one greek word and means "I am, be located, I find myself, I lie around".

2 ) "Kοιμάμαι" is another greek word that means "I'm sleeping".

Please, observe that there is a difference between them of one letter the first has an "ε" and in the second has an "o".

both have the same root describing a situation in which I am, I find myself, I be located somewhere, but the second word means clearly and literally that "I'm sleeping".

Sorry, but I do not agree that Epicurus means the pleasures of the profligates are the enjoyment of one who sleeps or is dead. He means the enjoyments (of the profligates) that lie out of limits.

A profligate fears and is FEELING pain, he is not dead and he does not sleep. He has no prudence to make the hedonic calculus, but this does not mean that he does not FEEL.

CANON is the methodology that we measure with the senses and feelings.

Sorry guys, but it is not needed to be so scholastic with the meaning of the words. We grasp the meaning immediately and without mistake since we use our faculties and as we have studied properly the whole of our philosophy.

Thanks

We can connect the whole issue on "the enjoyments of the profligates" with the VS 11 (see photo) the word "ναρκά" that used by Epicurus means "lethargy". However, a profligate is not in a situation that he is not doing anything, he is just prone to the pleasures with motion (like the Cyreanics) the second word that is used by Epicurus that is "λύττα" [mania] is a proper one to describe the enjoyments of the profligates.

Epicurus is writing about two mistaken ideas about his philosophy here: he does not mean the pleasures of the profligates *nor* τας εν κειμένας απολαύσεις. He is refuting two mistaken understandings of his philosophy. He could very well to my eye be contrasting the mistaken views that Epicureans indulged the wild pleasures of the profligate *and* the exact opposite of indolence or laziness.

Quote from Elli

<τας εν κειμένας απολαύσεις> = <those that lie in enjoyments> [ those enjoyments that are out of limits] and this is what Epicurus means.

I still don't see how you're going from <those that lie in enjoyments> to getting [ those enjoyments that are out of limits]. That seems to me to be reading meaning into the words that isn't there from what I can see. To me, Epicurus wrote what he meant and meant what we wrote. I'm not seeing that meaning in the literal words.

Epicurus uses a related word (κεμαι with a prefix) in Fragment 207:

Fragment 207. Better to lie serene upon a bed of straw than to be full of troubles on a golden chair at an overflowing table.

κρεῖσσον δὲ σοι θαρρεῖν ἐπὶ στιβάδος κατακειμένῳ ἢ ταράττεσθαι χρυσῆν ἔχοντι χλίνην καὶ πολυτελῆ τράπεζαν.

It seems to me that Saint-Andre was generally correct in using the meaning of "lie down to rest, repose."

Just for the record too, I guess we could consider asking Peter St Andre directly about his thoughts. I have never had any communication with him in the past so I am not aware whether he is reachable or not.

Quote from Cassius

Just for the record too, I guess we could consider asking Peter St Andre directly about his thoughts. I have never had any communication with him in the past so I am not aware whether he is reachable or not.

I'll be happy to email him even though the Epicurus texts were posted on 2011. Hopefully he'll remember

PS: Emailed.

Don You wrote: "I still don't see how you're going from <those that lie in enjoyments> to getting [ those enjoyments that are out of limits]".

And I do not see how you're going from the feelings (enjoyments) and intepret them - metaphorically - to getting them onto the bed because they are sleepy!

κειμένων απολαύσεις = naughty enjoyments or lethargy enjoyments or (I found you a new greek word for "sleepy" "ενύπνιες" [enypnies] enjoyments.

No, dear friends the enjoyments are enjoyments, and the only they have are LIMITS.

A profligate would lough with this conversation, since his enjoyments are not sleepy, they are the awaken, and are those that are costantly in motion i.e. in a few words, a profligate is taking all the pleasures for himself, he is going to bed with many women or boys, he has the luxurious tables with luxurious foods, and he left for us, the suckers, a piece of bread and cheese and some figs for living in a cave.

And this fragment 207 ? Wow I'm astonished !

"to be better to lie serene upon a bed of straw than to be full of troubles on a golden chair at an overflowing table".

See the cunning: if you have a desire to buy a golden chair i.e to have a little luxury in your life... Alas, you will have troubles. So, you have to chose the bed of straw getting there and your enjoyments and feeling good. No, this gnomicon, alone, smells of stoicism.

And what a stoic/platonean idea is this really to use metaphors for the feelings? Cassius what do you say for the issue on the enjoyments are they OUT or IN of LIMITS? How we measure according to hedonic calculus ? Are there limits or not which are PERSONAL of course, and why is needed to use metaphorical terms for speaking and describing the FEELINGS? Feelings are our faculty, from the day we were born, we feel them immediately and without mistake in accordance with the circumstances (place and time) and are unique for everyone!

Quote from Elli

And I do not see how you're going from the feelings (enjoyments) and intepret them - metaphorically - to getting them onto the bed because they are sleepy!

The construction of the two phrases is very similar:

1. τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς

καὶ "and"

2. τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας

which Epicurus seems fond of doing in pairs.

τὰς ἡδονὰς "the pleasures"

τῶν ἀσώτων "of the prodigal"

τὰς κειμένας "the lying down (to lie idle, to rest, to lie still)

ἐν ἀπολαύσει "in enjoyment"

The second phrase to me implies lethargic inactivity while the first, the profligate one, implies wild activity. Epicurus is saying both are wrong understandings of his philosophy.

Quote from Elli

A profligate would lough with this conversation, since his enjoyments are not sleepy, they are the awaken, and are those that are costantly in motion

From my reading, The two phrases joined by και are describing two different misunderstandings that Epicurus is trying to refute.

Quote from Elli

And what a stoic/platonean idea is this really to use metaphors for the feelings? Cassius what do you say for the issue on the enjoyments are they OUT or IN of LIMITS? How we measure according to hedonic calculus ? Are there limits or not which are PERSONAL of course, and why is needed to use metaphorical terms for speaking and describing the FEELINGS? Feelings are our faculty, from the day we were born, we feel them immediately and without mistake in accordance with the circumstances (place and time) and are unique for everyone!

Elli I wonder here if you are saying that "limits" apply more to "desires" than to "feelings"? That would be an interesting direction to go, with desires being intellectual and requiring intellectual limitation (?)

Epicurus does seem to use the standard philosophical ἄπειρος whenever he wants to talk about the unlimited (see KD 20, for example), so while I think it's definitely true that Epicurus wants to correct the misunderstanding that Epicureans pursue unlimited pleasure, like Don, I'm inclined to render that specific passage without appeal to the unlimited. I find the idea that it concerns sloth appealing because that does seem like a proper contrast to profligacy, though I admit I had never read the passage that way myself.

To me, upon further reflection, this seems to echo the contrast in VS11:

τῶν πλείστων ἀνθρώπων τὸ μὲν ἡσυχάζον ναρκᾷ, τὸ δὲ κινούμενον λυττᾷ.

For the majority of people, to be at rest is to be bored stiff; but to be active is to be raving like a rabid dog.

(My translation)

Quote from Cassius

Kalsoyni asked me about that and every other translation I can find (Bailey, Hicks, Yonge, Epicurus Wiki) focuses on prodigal and sensuality.

There's a new translation of 'Lives of the Eminent Philosophers' by Pamela Mensch which was published in 2018 by Oxford University Press. I find her translation of the fragment in question much more on point then all the 'sensuality' attempts or 'the enjoyment of sleep' one.

[...] But when we say that pleasure is our goal, we do not mean the pleasures of the prodigal or the self-indulgent, as the ignorant think, or those who disagree with or misinterpret our views. [...] (page 535)

I don't know any Greek so I can't add much to the argument but taking into consideration context of the whole paragraph of the letter, 'the enjoyment of sleep' translation makes as much sense to me as 'the enjoyment of collecting snails by the river on Sunday afternoon'.

I'm leaning towards an interpretation of Epicurus making a contrast between the frenzied pleasures of profligates and lazy indolent (maybe "self-indulgent") pleasures... Maybe?

Thanks Tau Phi, good to see that there is anoher variation out there in the "standard" versions.

FYI

Original text

Ὅταν οὖν λέγωμεν ἡδονὴν τέλος ὑπάρχειν, οὐ τὰς τῶν ἀσώτων ἡδονὰς καὶ τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας λέγομεν,

Saint-Andre

131: So when we say that pleasure is the goal, we do not mean the pleasures of decadent people or the enjoyment of sleep, ...

Don

131: Therefore, whenever we say repeatedly that "pleasure is the τέλος," we do not say the pleasure of those who are prodigal [and those who are lying about in enjoyment] like those who are ignorant, those who don't agree with us, or those who believe wrongly; [NOTE: Still working on mine!]

Mensch

[...] But when we say that pleasure is our goal, we do not mean the pleasures of the prodigal or the self-indulgent, as the ignorant think, or those who disagree with or misinterpret our views. [...] (page 535)

Hicks

"When we say, then, that pleasure is the end and aim, we do not mean the pleasures of the prodigal or the pleasures of sensuality, as we are understood to do by some through ignorance, prejudice, or wilful misrepresentation.

Elli

"So when we say that pleasure is the end of life, we are not speaking of the pleasures of the profligates and those in the enjoyment (that lie out of limits).

Epicurus Wiki

"we do not mean the pleasure of debauchery or sensuality,"

Bailey

"When, therefore, we maintain that pleasure is the end, we do not mean the pleasures of profligates and those that consist in sensuality,"

When we say that pleasure is the goal, we are not talking about the pleasure of profligates or that which lies in sensuality, as some ignorant persons think, or else those who do not agree with us or have followed our argument

badly; rather, it is freedom from bodily pain and mental anguish (source)

So when we say that pleasure is the goal we do not mean the pleasures of the profligate or

the pleasures of consumption, as some believe, either from ignorance and disagreement

or from deliberate misinterpretation, (source)

Pamela Gordon

[So whenever we say that pleasure is the telos [the fulfillment or end], we do not

mean the pleasures of degenerates and pleasures that consist of physical enjoyment, as some assume (out of ignorance and because they disagree, or because they misconstrue our meaning), but we mean the absence of pain in the body and the absence of distress in the spirit.]

Stephen White

"So when we say that pleasure is the end, we do not mean the pleasures of the dissolute or those of indulgence, as some mistakenly maintain, whether out of disagreement or malicious distortion."

Noting that I'm completely ignorant of the Greek, I could see how pleasures of "indulgence" in this translation could refer to being out of limits.

Not to lead us astray here, but is it possible this could be a reference to sex? I mean, if we did follow the idea that we're talking about the kinds of things a person might enjoy while lying in bed.

Quote from Little Rocker

Not to lead us astray here, but is it possible this could be a reference to sex? I mean, if we did follow the idea that we're talking about the kinds of things a person might enjoy while lying in bed.

Ah!! Maybe the other translations "sensual" was a circumlocution for sex! That *is* food for thought! Well done, Little Rocker !

I can't seem to let this go. I searched this morning for other uses of κείμενας in Diogenes Laertius plus I found 2 uses of the specific phrase τας κειμενας in Demosthenes and Diogenes Laertius:

τὰς κειμένας

1. (those) deposited (Demosthenes, Against Olympiodorus 48:17)

2. (those) deposited (Diogenes Laertius 5:3:64)

ἐν ᾧ κείμενα θεωρεῖτα

"where they are seen to be." (ie, stars) (Diogenes Laertius 10:112; letter to Pythocles)

τὰ αὐτὰ δίκαια κείμενα, (Diogenes Laertius 10:153; PD38)

"for the same things *as they are*" (see http://wiki.epicurism.info/Principal_Doctrine_38/)

And ἐν ἀπολαύσει consistently means "in pleasure"; "enjoyment" whether in Ancient Greek pagan texts or Biblical references.

In that light of day, I don't know if I'm as persuaded by Little Rocker 's conjecture. (Sorry) Although I may now be more confused than before!

I do think some translators skip over the ambiguity of the line and simply put it what they want to see or expect to see with their preconceptions of Epicurus's philosophy.