Natural Wealth and Natural Goods in Epicureanism

We are now requiring that new registrants confirm their request for an account by email.  Once you complete the "Sign Up" process to set up your user name and password, please send an email to the New Accounts Administator to obtain new account approval.

Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!

    Cassius

    Yes, "deviant" certainly is a weird word here. I'd suggest that what he's after is the oikonomia that requires a techne because it goes beyond (deviates from) the natural (Epicurean) bounds, i.e. with its maximizing aim. That kind of oikonomia seems to match that last line of the Tsouna quote: "On the other hand, 'more' corresponds somehow to 'the measure of wealth' but never amounts to the open-ended goal of traditional οἰκονομία, namely, to amass as many riches as possible through decent and lawful means."

    Still, a strange word choice.

    Now I have to go watch some baseball. :)

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

    I just came across this paper:

    Horace, Ofellus and Philodemus of Gadara in Sermones 2.2
    This paper examines Horace's portrayal in Sermones 2.2 of Ofellus, the poet's rustic spokesman whose recent loss of property provides the opportunity…
    www.academia.edu

    Good analysis of Epicurean themes in Horace. Still reading but seems solid. One basic thread is the encouragement to be satisfied with little - to take pleasure in little - if circumstances change and little, ie, only the basics, is all you have.

    It makes 100% sense to me that we should take pleasure in little if little is all we have. Seems to me that it's very hard to quibble with that.

    The tougher rhetorical issue seems to me to be "Is it inherent within the expression of that thought that little is 'good enough' and therefore we should not act to seek more than little?"

    I think a lot of people jump to that conclusion, perhaps influences by Stoic and many other sources of ideas, but I do not at all think that conclusion is necessarily implied, and I get the idea that most of the ancients and all of the Epicureans would think such a suggestion to be absurd, because it is natural for all life to pursue as much pleasure as is open to it to obtain without undue hardship.

    I write this because Don if you see anything in that article or Horace which bears on that subject please bring it up. Epicurus makes it plain in the letter to Menoeceus that we do not set our sites on "little" but on "pleasure" , and I bet there are other instances of the same thought out there in other texts.

    When Horace said "Seize the day" he didn't say "Seize little" or "Seize only what will keep you alive."

    Here is an interesting excerpt from the above article that Don posted, which says that Epicureanism appealed to all walks of life:

    Quote

    Unlike the Stoics, moreover, whose philosophical ideal was extreme enough to elicit playful sarcasm from Horace (cf. Ep. 1.1.106-108), Epicurus’ universal invitation to philosophy (Arr. 4.122.1-11) effectively attracted Romans from all walks of life, including, as Cicero notes, respectable but uneducated rustics like Ofellus.􀀱􀀱 As a matter of fact, Epicurus even states that, like Ofellus, the sage will be ‘fond of the countryside’ (φι󰎻αγρήσειν, Arr. 1.120a.2) and will closely associate the practice of philoso-phy with economic matters (Γε󰎻ᾶν ἅµα δεῖ καὶ φι󰎻οσοφεῖν καὶ οἰκονοµεῖν, ‘One must laugh and philosophize and manage one’s economic affairs’, Arr. 6.41). One may reasonably wonder, therefore, whether this connection influenced Horace’s choice to portray his sage as a country-dwelling local whose advice is economic in nature...

    Quote from Cassius

    Epicurus makes it plain in the letter to Menoeceus that we do not set our sites on "little" but on "pleasure" , and I bet there are other instances of the same thought out there in other texts.

    I do believe there is evidence for both the goal of pleasure AND the goal of well-being, at the same time -- because Epicureans seek both sides of removing pain and adding in pleasure -- and this could be the difference between Cyreniacs and Epicureans? For Cyreniacs pleasure was physical and only in the present moment, but for Epicureans it is inclusive of bodily, mental, and memory. So for the Cyreniacs over-indulgence (profligacy) would be an okay choice -- but for Epicureans if physical pleasure brings mental regret, than it would be avoided (or avoided if it brings painful consequences).

    Quote from Cassius

    When Horace said "Seize the day" he didn't say "Seize little" or "Seize only what will keep you alive."

    I may not correctly understand this idea, but it does seem to justify "seizing" upon one's passions and possibly disregarding the consequences of one's actions -- but maybe that is just a modern interpretation. So I think it is necessary to find the "sweet spot" on this - neither extremes of over-indulgence nor austere frugality.

    I realize that I need to come back to this thread and add more regarding Epicurean natural goods.

    Okay, "seize the day" has been so in-grained in modern Western popular culture to equate with FOMO (Fear of missing out) or constantly seeking new thrilling experiences that I feel obliged to urge everyone to take a look at Horace's original.

    Wikipedia actually has a nice article:

    Carpe diem - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org

    To me, I prefer the more literal "Pluck the day" or "Harvest the day".

    Compare Greek καρπός (karpós, “fruit”) and κείρω (keírō, “to cut off”), English harvest, sharp, shear.

    "Seize" always has such a frenzied feel to it. Seizing, grasping, clutching... And that's not what the original means.

    I envision Horace plucking a ripe peach from a tree and sinking his teeth into its perfect, juicy flesh.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply

    2. Beyond Stoicism (2025) 16

      • Don
      • August 12, 2025 at 2:04 PM
    3. Replies
      16
      Views
      363
      16

    4. Don

      August 12, 2025 at 2:04 PM

    2. Immutability of Epicurean school in ancient times 11

      • TauPhi
      • July 29, 2025 at 2:14 PM
    3. Replies
      11
      Views
      887
      11

    4. Eikadistes

      July 29, 2025 at 2:14 PM

    2. Recorded Statements of Metrodorus 11

      • Cassius
      • July 28, 2025 at 7:23 PM
    3. Replies
      11
      Views
      726
      11

    4. Cassius

      July 28, 2025 at 7:23 PM

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

What's the best strategy for finding things on EpicureanFriends.com? Here's a suggested search strategy:

  • First, familiarize yourself with the list of forums. The best way to find threads related to a particular topic is to look in the relevant forum. Over the years most people have tried to start threads according to forum topic, and we regularly move threads from our "general discussion" area over to forums with more descriptive titles.
  • Use the "Search" facility at the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere." Also check the "Search Assistance" page.
  • Use the "Tag" facility, starting with the "Key Tags By Topic" in the right hand navigation pane, or using the "Search By Tag" page, or the "Tag Overview" page which contains a list of all tags alphabetically. We curate the available tags to keep them to a manageable number that is descriptive of frequently-searched topics.