May 25 Wednesday Open Invitation Epicurean Zoom


    This Wednesday the 25th of May will be the fourth Wednesday of the month, and in accord with our planning this would be the week that we talk about art and music and poetry. The way we described it at Eventbrite was:

    -Fourth Wednesday of the Month - Sharing Epicurean Ideas In The Modern World - Discuss ideas for engagement with people who don't know Epicurean Philosophy but who might be open to discussing it.

    Let's use this thread to make suggestions as to topics to include - which means if you have a suggestion and would like to talk about it, please post it here.

  • I forgot to remind everyone of Nate 's compilation of all the PDs first:

    For anyone who's interested, here are my personal notes on PD3 and PD4...

    PD3 Ὅρος τοῦ μεγέθους τῶν ἡδονῶν ἡ παντὸς τοῦ ἀλγοῦντος ὑπεξαίρεσις. ὅπου δ’ ἂν τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐνῇ, καθ’ ὃν ἂν χρόνον ᾖ, οὐκ ἔστι τὸ ἀλγοῦν ἢ τὸ λυπούμενον ἢ τὸ συναμφότερον.

    • Ὅρος limit, rule, standard. A boundary or marker stone Masc. 2nd declension.
    • μεγέθος of degree, greatness, magnitude.
      • παντός genitive singular masculine and neuter of πᾶς
      • (in the plural) all, every, each
      • (in the singular) whole
    • άλγος pain (of either mind or body), sorrow, trouble, grief, distress, woe
      • LSJ: bodily pain
    • ὑπεξαιρέω
      • I. to take away from below, αἷμα ὑπ. to drain away blood, Soph.
      • 2. to make away with, to destroy gradually, Eur.; τοὐπίκλημʼ ὑπεξελών having done away with the charge, Soph.:—Pass., Hdt., Thuc.
      • II. Mid. to take out privily for oneself, steal away, Il.
      • 2. to put aside, except, exclude, Plat., Dem.

    εως, ἡ, A removal, τοῦ ἀλγοῦντος Epicur.Sent.3 (ἐξαίρεσις a better reading, acc. to Demetr.Lac.Herc.1012.23); τοῦ ἀλλοτρίου Gal.14.681; τῶν ἀποφατικῶν Stoic.2.84; μεθ' ὑπεξαιρέσεως with a reservation, Epict.Ench.2.2, M.Ant.4.1, Stoic.3.149, cf. D.S. 12.21 (pl.), Artem.1.52; καθ' ὑπεξαίρεσίν τινος S.E.M.8.479; εἶχεν ὑ. τοῦ μὴ ὅμοιον εἶναι . . A.D. Adv.205.21: hence in Rhet., a treating as exceptional, Alex.Fig.1.7. 2 refutation, opp. πίστις, Phld.Rh. 1.202 S. (pl.). ὅπου where ἥδομαι

    • to be pleased, enjoy oneself

    ἡδόμενον neuter participle λυπούμενον neuter middle/passive participle of λυπεω

    • I. to give pain to, to pain, distress, grieve, vex, annoy, Hdt., Trag., etc.; ἡ θώραξ λ. distresses by its weight, Xen.:—absol. to cause pain or grief, Soph.
    • 2. of marauders, to harass, annoy by constant attacks, Hdt., Thuc., etc.
    • II. Pass. with fut. mid. to be pained, grieved, distressed, Theogn., etc.; μὴ λυπέεο be not distressed, Hdt.:—c. acc. cogn., λύπας λυπεῖσθαι Plat.:—also c. acc. rei, to grieve about a thing, Soph.:—absol. to feel pain, Eur., etc.

    συναμφότερον accusative singular masculine < συν + ἀμφότερον

    • of two or more things taken together + both together

    [Don translation - "The limit of the magnitude of pleasure (is) the whole of the removal of that which causes pain. Where that which gives pleasure exists, during the time it is present, there is neither pain nor that which causes pain in body or mind nor either of these together." (Clunky translation, but a start.)]

    Hicks translation

    3The magnitude of pleasures is limited by the removal of all pain. Wherever there is pleasure, so long as it is present, there is no pain either of body or of mind or both.

    Saint-Andre translation

    3The limit of enjoyment is the removal of all pains. Wherever and for however long pleasure is present, there is neither bodily pain nor mental distress.

    [St-Andre note 3] The word ἡδονή is often translated solely as "pleasure"; however, depending on the context I also translate it as "joy", "delight", "enjoyment", or even "happiness" in the modern sense because the Greek word ἡδονή refers to any physical, emotional, or mental state that is filled with sweetness (ἡδύς), whereas the English word "pleasure" carries stronger connotations of a purely physical state (although compare phrases such as "the pleasures of philosophy"). Furthermore, although there is no hard and fast distinction between ἄλγος as bodily pain and λυπούμενος as mental distress, the former word tends to be used more in relation to the body and the latter more in relation to the mind or emotions; see also Principal Doctrine #10. For other texts that emphasize the concept of a natural limit to enjoyment, see Principal Doctrines #11, #15, #18, #19, #20, as well as Letter to Menoikos, Section 133, Vatican Saying #35, and Fragment #548.

    Fragment 68. To those who are able to reason it out, the highest and surest joy is found in the stable health of the body and a firm confidence in keeping it. [note] τὸ γὰρ εὐσταθὲς σαρκὸς κατάστημα καὶ τὸ περὶ ταύτης πιστὸν ἔλπισμα τὴν ἀκροτάτην χαρὰν καὶ βεβαιοτάτην ἔχει τοῖς ἐπιλογίζεσθαι δυναμένοις.

    Vatican Saying 33. The body cries out to not be hungry, not be thirsty, not be cold. Anyone who has these things, and who is confident of continuing to have them, can rival the gods for happiness. [note] σαρκὸς φωνὴ τὸ μὴ πεινῆν, τὸ μὴ διψῆν, τὸ μὴ ῥιγοῦν· ταῦτα γὰρ ἔχων τις καὶ ἐλπίζων ἕξειν κἂν <διὶ> ὑπὲρ εὐδαιμονίας μαχέσαιτο.

    Fragment 70. Beauty and virtue and such are worthy of honor, if they bring joy; but if not then bid them farewell! [note] τιμητέον τὸ καλὸν καὶ τὰς ἀρετὰς καὶ τοιουτότροπα, ἐὰν ἡδονὴν παρασκευάζῃ· ἐὰν δὲ μὴ παρασκευάζῃ χαίρειν ἐατέον.

    PD4 Οὐ χρονίζει τὸ ἀλγοῦν συνεχῶς ἐν τῇ σαρκί, ἀλλὰ τὸ μὲν ἄκρον τὸν ἐλάχιστον χρόνον πάρεστι, τὸ δὲ μόνον ὑπερτεῖνον τὸ ἡδόμενον κατὰ σάρκα οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας συμβαίνει· αἱ δὲ πολυχρόνιοι τῶν ἀρρωστιῶν πλεονάζον ἔχουσι τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ ἤ περ τὸ ἀλγοῦν.


    • τὸ ἀλγοῦν συνεχῶς Οὐ χρονίζει ἐν τῇ σαρκί,
      • Continuous pain does not linger in the body,
      • ἄλγος I. pain of body, Il., Soph. 2. pain of mind, grief, distress, Hom. II. anything that causes pain, Bion., Anth.
      • συνεχως continuously
      • χρονίζω I. intr. to spend time, Hdt.: to take time, tarry, linger, delay, be slow, Aesch., Thuc.; c. inf. to delay to do, NTest. 2. of things, χρονίζον μένειν to remain long, Aesch. II. Pass. to be prolonged or protracted, id=Aesch.
    • μὲν ἀλλὰ τὸ ἄκρον τὸν ἐλάχιστον χρόνον πάρεστι
      • but, on the one hand, the highest point is present for the shortest time,
      • ἐλάχιστος Sup. of ἐλαχύς, comp. ἐλάσσων, I. the smallest, least, οὐκ ἐλ. Hhymn., Hdt., etc.; ἐλαχίστου λόγου of least account, id=Hdt.; περὶ ἐλαχίστου ποιεῖσθαι Plat. 2. of Time, shortest, διʼ ἐλαχίστου [sc. χρόνου] Thuc.; διʼ ἐλαχίστης βουλῆς with shortest deliberation, id=Thuc.
      • παρεστι to be present in our at παρά + ειμι
    • δὲ τὸ μόνον ὑπερτεῖνον τὸ ἡδόμενον κατὰ σάρκα οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας συμβαίνει·
      • on the other hand...that which is only extends
      • That which is only pleasurable extends Through the body not many days
      • μονος alone, only, unique
      • ὑπερ + τείνω < 1. to stretch, extend, 2. to spread, 3. to exert, push to the limit, strain
      • ἡδόμενον neuter participle: being pleased, enjoying oneself
      • κατα + acc = through
      • σάρκα f (plural σάρκες) nom & acc
        • (biology) flesh
        • (botany) pulp, flesh
      • κατὰ σάρκα = through the body


    • II. metaph. to come together, come to an agreement, come to terms, Lat. convenire, τινί with another, Hdt., attic; c. inf., ς. ὑπήκοοι εἶναι Thuc.; Pass., of the terms, to be agreed on, id=Thuc.
    • 2. of things, to coincide or correspond with, c. dat., Hdt., attic:—absol., Trag., etc.

    δὲ αἱ πολυχρόνιοι τῶν ἀρρωστιῶν πλεονάζον ἔχουσι τὸ ἡδόμενον ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ περ τὸ ἀλγοῦν. (2 prepositional phrases) πολυχρόνιος

    • I. long-existing, of olden time, ancient, Hhymn., Hdt., Xen.
    • II. lasting for long, Arist.:—comp. -ώτερος, Plat.; Sup. -ώτατος, Xen.

    αἱ πολυχρόνιοι τῶν ἀρρωστιῶν = the long-lasting days of sickness ("illnesses of long duration") περ intensifies following word "very" αρρωστιών f Genitive plural form of αρρώστια

    • malady, sickness, illness
    • disease


    • to presume on
    • to be superfluous, more than enough
    • (of a writer) to be prolix or tedious

    Hicks translation

    4Continuous pain does not last long in the flesh, and pain, if extreme, is present a very short time, and even that degree of pain which barely outweighs pleasure in the flesh does not occur for many days together. Illnesses of long duration even permit of an excess of pleasure over pain in the flesh.

    Saint-Andre translation

    4Pain does not last continuously in the flesh; instead, the sharpest pain lasts the shortest time, a pain that exceeds bodily pleasure lasts only a few days, and diseases that last a long time involve delights that exceed their pains.

    Translation from attalus:

    4 Pain does not abide continuously in the flesh, but in its extremity it is present only a very short time. That pain which only just exceeds the pleasure in the flesh, does not last many days. But long diseases have in them more that is pleasant than painful to the flesh.

    Translation from

    4) Continuous physical pain does not last long. Instead, extreme pain lasts only a very short time, and even less-extreme pain does not last for many days at once. Even protracted diseases allow periods of physical comfort that exceed feelings of pain.

    Edited once, last by Don: Initially forgot to remind everyone of Nate's extremely helpful work! ().