Epicurean Change

Quote from Matt

So Epicurean wisdom must be lived. There is a danger of only receiving Epicurean philosophy in an intellectual or stoicized manner and still live in a state of anesthesia without pleasure.

DEFINITELY!

A philosopher's words are empty if they do not heal the suffering of mankind. For just as medicine is useless if it does not remove sickness from the body, so philosophy is useless if it does not remove suffering from the soul. κενὸς ἐκείνου φιλοσόφου λόγος, ὑφʼ οὗ μηδὲν πάθος ἀνθρώπου θεραπεύεται· ὥσπερ γὰρ ἰατρικῆς οὐδὲν ὄφελος μὴ τὰς νόσους τῶν σωμάτων ἐκβαλλούσης, οὕτως οὐδὲ φιλοσοφίας, εἰ μὴ τὸ τῆς ψυχῆς ἐκβάλλει πάθος.

Quote from Matt

This state of the pursuit pleasure is the natural state of human behavior, surrounded by a cloud of illusory constructs that tell us to reject this natural state. Those constructs are wrong…they keep us from pursuing pleasure.

Well put: that seems to be the crux of the problem! Not only on the level of the individual, but on the level of society.

Quote from Don

so philosophy is useless if it does not remove suffering from the soul.

, οὕτως οὐδὲ φιλοσοφίας, εἰ μὴ τὸ τῆς ψυχῆς ἐκβάλλει πάθος.

btw ἐκβάλλει is not merely "remove." It connotes cast away, hurl away, or throw from. "Remove" strikes me as a little milquetoast.

Quote from Don

Remove" strikes me as a little milquetoast.

And if there is anything we need to purge from Epicurean philosophy and from our lives it is milquetoastism!

FYI Did not realize the word came from a comic strip:

Caspar Milquetoast - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Quote from Matt

You can probably infer from my veiled language what the change is. But it’s astonishing the hold that some circumstances have on us and how long we are willing to be miserable for.

I have a certain understanding of "free will" that may or may not be purely Epicurean, and sometime in the future may go further into that -- but basically be kind to yourself and forgive yourself, and congratulations on your spring renewal, as sounds like something finally shifted in your life!!!

From my own experience, I have found that sometimes it can take some time to figure things out and find a way forward to a better life. And then a small shift begins a quantum leap. Yet life is a mix of experiences -- in our human bodies we will all feel pleasure and pain, both physical and mental. As we use reason and wisdom to move toward pleasure, we can begin to trust ourselves and life -- we can trust that whatever might come in the future, we will find pleasure and enjoyment, and move toward a fullness of pleasure and joy in life.

It's amazing how often reason is used to justify pain, and it's a challenging process to learn to listen to our Feelings, develop prudence, and begin our reasoning process with our perceptions. I confess that it's a process I'm still learning.

The Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning

University of Toronto psychologist Paul Bloom shares 5 key insights from his new book, The Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning

nextbigideaclub.com

That's one problem I have with the new book by Paul Bloom. He seems (I've not read the book but heard him on several podcasts talking about it) to see some problem in taking pleasure in things, even things that may have been difficult to achieve. His stress on "meaning vs pleasure" seems specious to me:

Quote from Paul Bloom

Now, one alternative to pleasure is meaning. This drive for meaning is every bit as important as the drive to have a good time, to enjoy ourselves, to be happy.

But from my perspective, that "meaning" he stresses gives one pleasure, so we're right back to an Epicurean square one. It's the hedonist = "a string of drinking parties and festivals" straw-man fallacy that is not what Epicurus advocated.

Quote from Godfrey

how often reason is used to justify pain

As long as reason is being used to justify pain so that greater pleasure can be obtained then tat would presumably be correct reasoning.

I get the feeling that our error is often not so much "listening to reason" vs "listening to the feeling of pleasure" so much as it is that we lose sight of the fact that the ultimate goal of reasoning is to achieve pleasure (even if temporarily through pursuit of pain).

Definitely it's hard to know how to succeed in the face of many types of challenges and that kind of practical learning is required in addition to the raw philosophy.

Don and I crossposted. I am not familiar with Bloom, but what I am coming to in agreeing with Don's criticism is that the term "meaning" ought to be translated (as many of these commentators are using it) as "those types of pleasure of which I (the commentator) approve!

The more I hear "meaning" used as a rhetorical weapon against pleasure the more I am driven to that conclusion.

Quote from Cassius

As long as reason is being used to justify pain so that greater pleasure can be obtained then tat would presumably be correct reasoning.

I get the feeling that our error is often not so much "listening to reason" vs "listening to the feeling of pleasure" so much as it is that we lose sight of the fact that the ultimate goal of reasoning is to achieve pleasure (even if temporarily through pursuit of pain).

Agreed, although the Platonic/Aristotelian model prevalent in our society is to divorce reason from feelings. So often this puts us in a position to consciously attempt to "override" our feelings, which are necessary for prudent actions. This seems like the root of the problem, and one of the issues that Epicurus was addressing in making reason subservient to our canonic faculties.