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Preconceptions and PD24

  • Eikadistes
  • December 14, 2021 at 5:50 PM
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  • Eikadistes
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    • April 26, 2025 at 3:45 PM
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    • #41

    I'm going to re-visit this, but I need a placeholder.

    As I'm translating into 10.50 of the Epistle to Hēródotos, I am finding a shit-ton of employments of phantastikai epibolai tês dianoias as τὴν φαντασίαν, φαντασίαν ἐπιβλητικῶς τῇ διανοίᾳ, τῇ φανταστικῇ ἐπιβολῇ, τῶν φαντασμῶν, τινὰς ἐπιβολὰς τῆς διανοίας , τῇ φανταστικῇ ἐπιβολῇ, and I am sure many others. He specifically starts throwing around this phrase when discussing the mechanics of sight.

    He drops this phrase (as I recall) once in the KD, and once (I think) by Diogénēs Laértios in his own description. As it turns out Ep. Hēr. provides us with a real wealth of examples of this phrase.

    ... also, neither here nor there, but I detect a tone of admonishment from Epíkouros toward Hērodotos.

  • Joshua
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    • April 26, 2025 at 5:01 PM
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    • #42

    I think David Glidden discusses some of this in his article "Epicurean Prolepsis";

    Quote

    If we could determine how prolepseis arise, we might be in a position to determine their range. As I understand prolepsis, it cannot be the work of any particular sense organ, but it is a perceptual recognition of the mind as a result of the work of the separate sense organs. But if we assume it is the work of dianoia, it is still something we perceive in the world, not a rational reconstruction or hypothesis. Here the case of the gods is instructive. The mind, operating as a sixth sense sensitive to especially fine eidola, perceives the gods, just as it perceives phantoms in dreams. I suggest that this same apprehension of the mind, epibole tes dianoias, can perceive persistent characteristics characterizing the things it or the other sense faculties perceive, the sorts of things these things are. And so we have a prolepsis that the gods are blessed and immortal, over and above having a vision of them. Presumably these prolepseis are formed in the mind as a result of repeated experiences, allowing us to get acquainted with the persistent characters of things. As accumulated information, these prolepseis would be common to all familiar with the same sorts of experiences.

    -Dr. David Glidden, "Epicurean Prolepsis", pp. 11-12

  • Eikadistes
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    • April 27, 2025 at 9:27 AM
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    • #43

    All right, so, this is by no means authoritative, but I did my best to try to illustrate what I understand to be the semantic context of these phrases, primarily found in 10.49-52:

    "Theories of Vision

    49 It is necessary then also to know [that the] impinging [of images occurs] on account of a certain thing from the outside [that enables] us to observe and to consider, since the nature [of objects] cannot be impressed [while we are] removed from the [objects] themselves, as [in the case] of an [object’s] color and of an [object’s] morphology [as though this these qualities could be extrapolated] from the air that [rests] between both of us and of the [objects as Aristotélēs says], nor [could it] on account of the “rays” [or “beams“] or whatever [is believed] of those presenting streams [of Empedoklḗs and Pláton], as a result of us [directing our gaze] toward those [objects]; therefore, just as in the case of some impressions [that are] impinging [upon] us [as] a result of both the colorful realities and of like morphologies concerning a harmonious magnitude [entering]into [either] the face or the mind, they are being swiftly assailed [by] the [atomic] forces, 50[and] then because of the latter[forcible] cause of that one [magnitude], both of [a] constant [stream of particles] yielding a [perceptual] phantasm15 and an[affective] sympathy as a result of the observing, [they] are [both] being established thereafter by symmetrical impact out of a [body] by breadth at the [immensely] fast [movement] of the pulsing of the uncuttable [particles]. And we could have immediately apprehended this applicative phantasm [within] the mind16 or [else could have apprehended] the sensations either [in the case] of [a body’s physical] morphology or of [a body’s qualitative] attributes.

    Fact, Fiction, and Fantasia

    That morphology exists [as] a solid [structure since] an [appearance] is being generated sequentially by a concentration or residue of the eídṓlou; moreover, a pseudodoxy, as [compared with] a [true belief], has gone astray from the [observable reality that] is being experienced [and] perpetually [that reality] exists. <In the case of what remains> to be confirmed or to be contradicted, either it will be confirmed <or it will be contradicted> (in respect of some motion within us [that] is [in]ourselves being merged with the creative application [of the mind],17 then possessing [such a] judgment, the pseudodoxy is being generated by that [creative application that can be either true or false]). 51For also that likeness of the [perceptual] phantasms18 [that] are being grasped as by [an] image are being generated, either in respect of [dreaming like during] slumbers or in respect of some other applications of the mind,19 or it could not actually be of the remaining criteria [of truth]— at some point it can have been arising [from] The Real just as true [statements] are being addressed, if [indeed] it was not a certain something, and in such manner besides that which we were apprehending; but having gone astray [from the facts], the proposition could could not have been arising [from Nature’s kanṓn], whether [or not] we were not grasping [the truth] and [instead preferred to follow] some other [persuasive] motion in us ourselves [that] is indeed being combined [to produce] a creative application20 [that] is being engaged; moreover, [this faculty] is [capable of] possessing [reliable] judgment, but again if [the faculty] was [either] not [capable of] confirming or [if] it was contradicting the [evidence], a pseudodoxy is being generated; but, if it was being confirmed, or [at least] was not being contradicted, [then] the [proposition is] true."

    And here are the corresponding footnotes, describing each declension:

    15. τὴν φαντασίαν (tḗn phantasían) meaning “a phantasm” or “the fantasy“.
    — τὴν (tḗn) – (fem. acc. sing.) – “a“, “the“.
    — φαντασίαν (phantasían) – (n. sing. acc.) meaning a “appearance“, “presentation“, “display“. ↩︎

    16. λάβωμεν φαντασίαν ἐπιβλητικῶς τῇ διανοίᾳ (lámbōmen phantasían épiblētikõs têi dianoíai), the “applicative fantasy” in “the mind“.
    — λάβωμεν (lámbōmen) – (v. 1st. pl. aor.) meaning “we received“, “we seized“, “we understood“, “we grasped“, “we apprehended“.
    — φαντασίαν (phantasían) – (n. sing. acc.) meaning “appearance“, “presentation“, “display“, “phantasm“, “fantasy“, “creative [application]”.
    — ἐπιβλητικῶς (épiblētikõs) – (adj. pl. acc.) meaning “apprehending immediately“, “apprehending directly, “quickly“, or “applicative“.
    — τῇ (têi) – (art. fem. dat. sing.) meaning “a“, “the [mind]“.
    — διανοίᾳ (dianoíai) – (n. dat. sing.) meaning “intention“, “purpose“, “thinking“, “mind“, “understanding“. ↩︎

    17. τῇ φανταστικῇ ἐπιβολῇ (têi phantastikéi épiboléi) or “a creative” or “the creative application” of the mind.
    — τῇ (têi) – (fem. dat. sing.) meaning “a“, “the [application]”.
    — φανταστικῇ (phantastikéi) – (adj. dat. sing.) meaning “creative“, “productive“, “fantastic“.
    — ἐπιβολῇ (épiboléi) – (n. sing. masc. dat.) meaning “throwing“, “apprehending“, “application“, “projection“. ↩︎

    18. τῶν φαντασμῶν (tṓn phantasmṓn) or “of the phantasms“, “of the appearances“, “of the fantasies [of the mind]“.
    — τῶν (tṓn) – (art. gen. pl) meaning “of the [phantasms]”.
    — φαντασμῶν (phantasmṓn) – (n. gen. pl) meaning “of phantasms“, “mental images“, “vain imaginings“, “visions“. ↩︎

    19. ἄλλας τινὰς ἐπιβολὰς τῆς διανοίας (állas tinàs épibolàs tḗs dianoías) meaning “some other application of the mind“.
    — ἄλλας (állas) – (adj. fem. acc. pl.) meaning “other“, “another“, “different“, “else“, “yet“, “still“.
    — τινὰς (tinàs) – (pron. masc. fem. acc. pl.) meaning “some“.
    — ἐπιβολὰς (épibolàs) – (n. sing. acc. pl.) meaning “apprehending“, “application“, “throwing“, “reaching“.
    — τῆς (tḗs) – (art. gen. sing. fem.) meaning “of a [thought]”, “of the [mind]”.
    — διανοίας (dianoías) – (gen. sing.) meaning “mind“. ↩︎

    20. τῇ φανταστικῇ ἐπιβολῇ (têi phantastikéi épiboléi) or “a creative” or “the creative application” of the mind.
    — τῇ (têi) – (fem. dat. sing.) meaning “a“, “the [application]”.
    — φανταστικῇ (phantastikéi) – (adj. dat. sing.) meaning “creative“, “productive“, “fantastic“.
    — ἐπιβολῇ (épiboléi) – (n. sing. masc. dat.) meaning “throwing“, “apprehending“, “application“, “projection“. ↩︎

    The other two examples are found in Key Doctrine 24 and Lives of Eminent Philosophers 10.31.

  • Eikadistes
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    • May 4, 2025 at 6:25 PM
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    • #44

    This placement in 10.62 is interesting: he presents a scenario where the ἐπιβολὴν λαμβανόμενον τῇ διανοίᾳ (épibolēn lampanómenon têi dianoíai), the "apprehending being grasped [by] the intellect" ἐστι ἀληθές or "is true", verus it being false under dissimilar conditions.

    More and more, it seems to me that there is no, true "Fourth Criterion" of the Kanon because Epíkouros, himself, writes that one such apprehension "is true" but another such "is false". However, that does not mean this, true apprehension is un-useful in having coherence with reality.

    Also, based on the consistency with which this phrase is re-employed, combined with the naturalistic language he uses when making analogies, I think he supposes that thinking, itself, can reliably be said to be like a fisherman purposefully casting a net in meaningful directions to catch thoughts.

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    • May 4, 2025 at 6:35 PM
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    • #45

    I look forward to Don and Bryan and anyone else fluent in Greek commenting on this. But your conclusion Eikadistes I continue to share: There are three legs of the canon, and they can be counted on because they do not involve opinion - i.e., they are never true or false, they just are.

    An operation of the mind which involves an opinion that is true or false (as would appear from your cite) cannot properly be thought of as a test of truth. That would be testing one opinion against another opinion.

    I suspect that the "fourth leg" position comes about from people knowing that comparing opinion against opinion is an important part of reasoning, and that's absolutely true. But that isn't the way you get back to and test opinions against raw data - you have to have a starting point which is not itself an opinion - you have to have a "yardstick." And opinions are not given to us by nature such that we can consider them to be a baseline yardstick.

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    • May 4, 2025 at 6:45 PM
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    • #46

    As a tangential comment Eikadistes, I also perceive a tendency in the "fourth leg" argument to conclude that the assignment of a word to a particular thing (the grasping part, i gather) involves a little more steering by nature than I think is consistent with Epicurus.

    As I read the discussion of language and civil society in Lucretius, it seems to me that the real stress is on "these developed naturally rather than being given by supernatural gods," rather than "nature leads us to associate certain words with certain things" or "nature leads us to a proper word choice" or "nature leads us to a proper system of government." I see both those as a "trial and error" process in which there are lots of different languages, and lots of different systems of government, that can all be equally consistent with "nature."

    I have a lot of respect for some who argue that there's a fourth leg, and clearly Diogenes Laertius says that "the Epicureans generally" (I think is the phrase) embraced the fourth leg. But to the extent that these other Epicureans deviated from Epicurus I think they were mistaken in doing so. The whole thing sounds to me like an improper attempt to reconcile with Stoicism.

  • Don
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    • May 4, 2025 at 6:59 PM
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    • #47
    Quote from Cassius

    Don .... and anyone else fluent in Greek

    :D I appreciate the vote of confidence!!

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    Bryan
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    • May 4, 2025 at 7:05 PM
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    • #48

    I read that part of 62 as "The addition of judgment concerning the unseen... ...is not true in such cases: since everything envisioned or comprehended through our attention to [mental] perception is true."

    The addition of judgment, then, is the source of the error, not "attention to mental perception."

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