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NPR Fresh Air: Dr. Anna Lembke on pleasure, pain, and addiction

  • Don
  • August 27, 2021 at 8:02 AM
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  • Don
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    • August 28, 2021 at 3:14 PM
    • #21
    Quote from Cassius

    Obviousky I didn't say it very well because I thought I was trying exactly what you said :)

    LOL! Well, there's how schisms get started! ^^

    Quote from Cassius

    Why I think we are both talking about is walking and chewing gum at the same time -. We can experience more than one thing at once, with one hand feeling pleasure and the other feeling pain (though there are probably better examples).

    Okay, I might be able to go with that. And, in lights of that then, I might be able to see your "ice cream in prison" metaphor. I was using the flavors of ice cream to demonstrate the "flavors" of pleasure: euphoria, joy, excitement, orgasmic, etc. You, I think, were using the ice cream to demonstrate that we can experience pleasure tinged to various degrees with pain. Correct me if I'm mischaracterizing your position. If that's it, I can acknowledge that. Our goal, if you will, is to try to increase the pleasure side of that ledger and minimize the pain side.

    The tricky thing is that Epicurus recognized that not feeling pain in itself is a pleasurable feeling. Which brings me back to the ideas of balance and homoeostasis as pleasure. This seems to me to be Epicurus's "health of the body and serenity of the mind."

  • Cassius
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    • August 28, 2021 at 3:28 PM
    • #22

    I don't have a problem really with considering the experience of feeling balanced and in equilibrium as a pleasure.

    The bogie-man I am always on the lookout for is the identification of any particular type of pleasure as higher or better than the rest, because then I think the advocate of such a position has fatally undermined the logic of the position that "pleasure" is the greatest good.

    I prefer to think of the pleasure of eating ice cream while also feeling in balance, or in equilibrium, as the best way to describe what is being discussed.

    At any particular time I think we're experiencing a lot of different pleasures (and pains, unfortunately) and at a high level we're looking for the net sum of everything. We might be crippled or have lost a leg, and have pain in our remaining stub of a leg , but otherwise be living a confident and successful life full of all sorts of pleasures. It wouldn't be right to say that the pain we experience in that situation doesn't exist, but it also wouldn't be be right to say that the loss of the leg totally ruins a life that is otherwise highly pleasurable.

    I don't think you're likely to go in the direction I am concerned about Don, but I am very confident that the Okeefe "Epicurus had a special definition of pleasure as absence of pain" crowd (not to single him out but just as an example) *would* go in that direction. They are constantly defining katastematic pleasure as the highest pleasure, saying that active pleasure (including joy and delight) are useful only to get to that state of painlessness, and strongly planting in the minds of their readers that that state has nothing to do with what ordinary mortals think of as "pleasure" at all.

    There's no doubt that certain portions of the texts can be read that way, and I can't say enough bad about that position, so it's a constant struggle to make sure that it doesn't creep in when in truth the waging of a campaign against it (and thus to place ordinary pleasure back in its rightful place, as per Gosling & Taylor, Nikolsky, and yes even DeWitt) is probably one of the main reasons for this forum. ;)

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    • August 28, 2021 at 3:40 PM
    • #23
    Quote from Cassius

    Godfrey so you are saying she sums pleasure and pain together to get a "net result" number which she then charts?

    No, what she calls pleasantness and unpleasantness are represented by opposite directions on an axis of hedonic valence (+ and -). This axis is intersected by an axis of arousal, with intensity of calm in one direction and intensity of agitation in the other direction. I don't think she's trying to describe pleasure and pain; she's trying to illustrate what her data is showing her regarding what she calls "affect".

    Epicurus didn't have access to today's neuroscience. He was working with observations and against Platonic abstractions. LFB's work is among the latest neuroscience so I find it extremely interesting and potentially useful that her conclusions in many ways seem to correspond with Epicurus' conclusions. Her "affective circumplex" is a modern model which is devoid of Platonic distraction. As an initial observation, I interpret "affect" as similar to "the faculty of feelings". As such, what might be considered maximum pleasure would be a point on the "pleasant" side of the hedonic valence axis and intersecting the circumscribing circle. This would represent maximum pleasantness with neither too much agitation or too much calm.

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    • August 28, 2021 at 3:58 PM
    • #24

    More on the affective circumplex (pleasure graph?):

    It doesn't rank pleasures such as mental v visual or chocolate ice cream v pistachio.

    "Absence of pain" (or absence of unpleasantness) would be anywhere on or to the right of the arousal axis. So it's not a mystical state, it's a range of "pleasures" including elation, gratification and serenity at any given time.

    Correcting my previous post, maximum pleasure would be any point on the circle to the right of the arousal axis. So maximum pleasure might involve being very calm, but it might also involve being totally stoked, man. Or anywhere on the right side of the circle in between.

  • Cassius
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    • August 28, 2021 at 4:44 PM
    • #25

    Is there some reason for the circle rather than just the two axes?

  • Don
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    • August 28, 2021 at 5:27 PM
    • #26
    Quote from Cassius

    Is there some reason for the circle rather than just the two axes?

    It's the natural curve from high pleasure valence/low arousal to low pleasure/high arousal and right around.

    Think of it as plotting points like:

    X0, Y10

    X1, Y9

    X2, Y8

    etc.

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    • August 28, 2021 at 6:56 PM
    • #27

    That's an excellent question! Apparently it's not as I've been interpreting it. I've been thinking of the circle as a limit, but some googling reveals:

    Circumplex: a circular depiction of the similarities among multiple variables. (APA Dictionary of Psychology)

    The circumplex model focuses on determining how traits and emotions are structurally similar, and its underlying assumption is that a relatively seamless circular odering, or circumplex, is an economical description of the relations among traits and emotions. (from an introduction to an out of print book on circumplexes)

    So I think that anything being mapped would occur on the circle and not within it. This is actually even more interesting because the intersection of the axes could be considered a neutral state, but if all states in this model must occur on the circle itself then there is no neutral state.

    Perhaps someone else is more familiar with this idea?

  • Don
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    • August 28, 2021 at 7:05 PM
    • #28
    Quote from Nikolsky

    The two parts of the division about which Epicurus is speaking - απονια and αταραξια, on the one hand, and χαρα and ευφροσύνη, on the other - are not separate, mutually exclusive types of pleasures. According to Plutarch, who examines these concepts in Chapters 7 and 8 of his dialogue A Pleasant Life Impossible (109la-1092d), the states of painlessness and tranquillity invariably bring about joy. This essential connection between the concepts mentioned by Epicurus compels us to view Epicurus' passage quoted by Diogenes Laertius not as a classification of pleasures but rather as a definition of two coexistent aspects of any pleasure: its passive aspect, i.e., a certain state of the body or the mind, and its active aspect manifesting itself in an emotional response of the soul.

    I'm skimming Nikolsky and came across this passage. Is it me or do the "two coexistent aspects" sound somewhat like the arousal axis on the circumplex? I need to go back and read that more closely.

  • Don
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    • August 28, 2021 at 8:38 PM
    • #29
    Quote from Godfrey

    This is actually even more interesting because the intersection of the axes could be considered a neutral state, but if all states in this model must occur on the circle itself then there is no neutral state.

    Thanks for that, Godfrey ! I think you're right. The only truly "neutral" state would be at the intersection of the two axes which can't actually exist if the affect exists in the circle. So Epicurus was "right" in a sense that there is no neutral state. You're either feeling pleasure or pain.

  • Cassius
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    • August 28, 2021 at 8:48 PM
    • #30
    Quote from Don

    So Epicurus was "right" in a sense that there is no neutral state. You're either feeling pleasure or pain.

    Anytime someone says "So Epicurus was 'right'..... you can expect me to agree, however:

    I'm not able to take the time to read Feldman and comment on the analysis other than what you guys are saying.

    The reason I am posting this comment is that as to the position that there is no "neutral state," I want to go on record as not being sure whether that position was intended to be something that he was taking on based on observation (such as on observation of babies and kittens and puppies) or whether that is a position he took on some kind of "logical" ground, as he did in the case of the swerve, and of the existence of the void. If it's the latter, that would be another reason to be cautious in drawing parallels with neurological or medical research.

    Personally, I doubt that the denial of a neutral state is of as much practical significance as it is of "logical" significance in debating with Plato on the nature of pleasure as the greatest good.

  • Don
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    • August 28, 2021 at 8:59 PM
    • #31

    Since we're (that is I ) seem to have taken us down a modern science research track on this thread, here's an interesting article after skimming it. Putting it here for future reference:

    (PDF) Sensory Pleasure and Homeostasis
    PDF | Since the origin of life, animals have behaved so as to seek environments favorable for their physiology and survival. All basic physiological... | Find,…
    www.researchgate.net
  • Don
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    • August 28, 2021 at 9:44 PM
    • #32
    Quote from Cassius

    Personally, I doubt that the denial of a neutral state is of as much practical significance as it is of "logical" significance in debating with Plato on the nature of pleasure as the greatest good.

    I'm not sure about that. It could have been (and I admittedly need to return to the texts) connected with his observation in PD2 that all feeling is based on consciousness and if you were neutral that might imply not having any sensation. If you're alive you're either feeling pleasure or pain

  • Godfrey
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    • August 29, 2021 at 2:18 AM
    • #33
    Quote from Don

    Is it me or do the "two coexistent aspects" sound somewhat like the arousal axis on the circumplex?

    Don I think I need some translations ;) but to my way of thinking regarding Nikolsky's quote in #28, tranquility and painlessness correspond to places on the the arousal axis and the valence axis, respectively. And as you say it seems like the passive aspect and the active aspect could correspond to the arousal axis. I'm not sure about that though; the circumplex and kinetic/katastematic are two completely different models and it's probably a stretch to equate them too closely.

    As to the lack of a neutral state, I think that it has practical significance in visualizing and understanding pleasure in addition to logical arguments. Understanding the interaction of degrees of pleasure and arousal is useful in finding guidance from your feelings. As LFB explains, our feelings are often influenced by things we don't expect. The more we understand and notice about our feelings, including whether or not we have a neutral state, the better we can use them for guidance.

    Getting back to the original post in this thread, I believe the Dopamine Nation author stated that there is a neutral state of dopamine (arousal, production, reaction?). I may be way off base, but I think that this corresponds to one axis in the circumplex model. Regardless, it seems to be another contemporary neuroscientific approach to pleasure and it might be interesting to compare this to the circumplex :/

  • Don
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    • August 29, 2021 at 4:02 AM
    • #34
    Quote from Godfrey

    I'm not sure about that though; the circumplex and kinetic/katastematic are two completely different models and it's probably a stretch to equate them too closely.

    See, that's where I'm not so sure anymore. We've been so conditioned to read that as "moving"/"static" and I'm not sure that is the way Epicurus intended. It seems to me that he did use the words, but Nikolsky makes a good case that they're not hard and fast categories or divisions. Especially katastematic as "static", I'm needing to delve deeper into the original texts where that and its derivations are used. I'm beginning to think that's a mischaracterisation. I should also do a search for what papers cite Nikolsky to see if we can expand on his ideas with other (of any) authors.***

    Quote from Godfrey

    Understanding the interaction of degrees of pleasure and arousal is useful in finding guidance from your feelings. As LFB explains, our feelings are often influenced by things we don't expect. The more we understand and notice about our feelings, including whether or not we have a neutral state, the better we can use them for guidance.

    :thumbup: :thumbup:

    Quote from Godfrey

    Getting back to the original post in this thread, I believe the Dopamine Nation author stated that there is a neutral state of dopamine (arousal, production, reaction?). I may be way off base, but I think that this corresponds to one axis in the circumplex model.

    Agreed. Even in listening to the podcast, it struck me that she wasn't really describing a "neutral" state as much as a state of balance. To muddy the waters even more, mayhaps a state of eudaimonia? :/ Neutral to me has connotations of numb. Balance has a connotation of pleasure.

    ***PS: I don't know why I didn't do this before posting ?( Here are the papers that cite Nikolsky per Google Scholar. Looks like some interesting ones at first glance:

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=related:v5L1bDhex1YJ:scholar.google.com/&scioq=Nikolsky+on+pleasure&hl=en&as_sdt=0,36

    ****This one was interesting:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://wiki.gonzaga.edu/alfino/images/e/e8/Splawn_UpdatingEpicurus.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjdxcm25NXyAhWLAZ0JHck3B-QQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3HpCa_CMvrYxD5iUtdxDpz

  • Don
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    • August 29, 2021 at 4:55 AM
    • #35

    My bad! I clicked Related articles, not Cited for Nikolsky. Here's the correct link:

    https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=6253070204066435775&as_sdt=5,36&sciodt=0,36&hl=en

  • Cassius
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    • August 29, 2021 at 7:42 AM
    • #36
    Quote from Don

    If you're alive you're either feeling pleasure or pain

    I agree that that's an important point.

    Quote from Don

    Especially katastematic as "static", I'm needing to delve deeper into the original texts where that and its derivations are used.

    I think if you eventually find the time you will find what you're looking for in Gosling & Taylor's "Greeks on Pleasure." It's stated there (somewhere) that the whole issue doesn't seem to derive from motion, because everything is always in motion, and If i recall correctly you'll find documentation there that the Greeks considered even thinking to be a form of motion. So the whole issue is clear as mud (which is why I find it so unhelpful).

    Quote from Don

    I should also do a search for what papers cite Nikolsky to see if we can expand on his ideas with other (of any) authors.***

    Good idea, but like I said, I think Nikolsky himself cites Gosling and Taylor as HIS inspiration (or else he told Elli and me that in a skype call we had several years ago). So the key analysis started with G&T and what Nikolsky added (if I recall) was basically to track it down to the "division of Carneades" as the likely reason that Laertius picked it up (since Laertius was telling his readers how several philosophers/issues fit under Carneades' categories).

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    • August 29, 2021 at 8:25 AM
    • #37

    Don I think our issue here, and the main difficulty in articulating this, is that there is an ambiguity / mismatch between English "Feeling" and Greek "pathe" --- It sounds like Epicurus said there are only two pathe / passions, but in English we have many "feelings" which are neither pleasurable nor painful.

    I touch a piece of wood and it's "hard" but the feeling is neither necessarily painful nor pleasurable. Now we can attempt to deal with that by referring perhaps to other experiences at the same time (we're taking pleasure in simply being alive) but we have a communication mismatch to deal with between English "feeling" of which there are many, and Greek "Pathe" of which there are only two.

    So if we could triangulate on a better word for "pathe" that is not the same as "feeling" we'd probably be better off. Apparently the translators prefer "passions" but the bad guys have loaded that word so negatively that it may not be usable for this purpose.

  • Don
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    • August 29, 2021 at 8:57 AM
    • #38
    Quote from Cassius

    but we have a communication mismatch to deal with between English "feeling" of which there are many, and Greek "Pathe" of which there are only two.

    Well, the famous declaration about the "pathē are two, pleasure and pain" is clear; however, of I remember correctly, Epicurus and Philodemus use pathē and its derivatives in their extant writings to refer to things other than pleasure and pain. So, I think "The Declaration of The Two" (yes, I just coined that ;) ) is extremely important, there's more going on with the word pathē. It could very well be as problematic as the word feelings in English.

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    • August 29, 2021 at 1:49 PM
    • #39

    What do you see as the preferred translation of "pathe"?

    Passion? Or what?

  • Don
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    • August 29, 2021 at 2:08 PM
    • #40
    Quote from Cassius

    What do you see as the preferred translation of "pathe"?

    Passion? Or what?

    LOL. You have a couple hours? ^^

    The problem is that the literal meaning, and one that some translators grapple with, is "that which happens to someone" (as opposed to that which someone does, an activity).

    It's related to the verb πάσχω http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…57:entry=pa/sxw

    so if you read that definition, you'll get an idea of the connotations and complications behind that word.

    Feeling isn't a bad translation. But you get that ambiguous English connotation. I know I've advocated for "reaction" before. I'd avoid passion since it gets tied up with sex and love. I'm not sure I have a better one than "feeling" but I'm searching.

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  • Cicero Fighting It Out "Horse And Foot" With Epicurus (Cicero's References to Epicurus in "On Duties" )

    Cassius July 23, 2025 at 6:49 PM
  • The "meaning crisis" trend. How do you answer it as an Epicurean philosopher?

    Sam_Qwerty July 23, 2025 at 6:47 PM
  • Comparing Cicero's "De Officiis", Thomas Jefferson's "Social Duties", and Epicurean Philosophy

    Kalosyni July 23, 2025 at 12:32 PM
  • "Christianizing the Roman Empire (A.D. 100-400)" Ramsay MacMullen, Yale UP, 1984

    kochiekoch July 23, 2025 at 11:44 AM
  • Welcome Sam_Qwerty!

    Kalosyni July 23, 2025 at 9:39 AM
  • Video: "Why Ancient Christians Destroyed Greek Statues"

    kochiekoch July 22, 2025 at 2:04 PM

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