"Wise Man" Saying as to Rejoicing At the Misfortune of Another

Where is this? I don't see that in my version that I did: https://sites.google.com/view/epicureansage

There's a section in Lucretius where he talks about being on hill and seeing a shipwreck and being grateful for not being involved in the catastrophe. Or something like that. But I don't remember this in the "wise man" sayings.

I see this in the Perseus edition online: "He will be grateful to anyone when he is corrected." DL X.120. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…0%3Achapter%3D1

Yeah, that's not how Hicks at Perseus translates that section:

Quote

And he will make money, but only by his wisdom, if he should be in poverty, and he will pay court to a king, if need be. He will be grateful to anyone when he is corrected. He will found a school, but not in such a manner as to draw the crowd after him

It seems the phrase in question comes right before the talk about establishment of a school. In the Greek, this is that sentence right before the school one:

Quote

καὶ ἐπιχαρήσεσθαί τινι ἐπὶ τῷ διορθώματι

So, we can try to dissect it and see what we come up with. Here we go...

καὶ = just and conjunction: "and, also, etc"
ἐπιχαρήσεσθαί http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29pixarh%2Fsesqai%2F&la=greek&can=e%29pixarh%2Fsesqai%2F0&prior=kai\&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0257:book=10:chapter=1&i=1#lexicon

Ah! So, that's where the ambiguity is coming in! The definition LSJ gives is "rejoice over, exult over, mostly of malignant joy" but also "rarely in good sense, to rejoice in another's joy". The first sense is followed by the dative case, the latter by the accusative. The word used here is in the future infinitive middle. The middle "tense" always points back to the individual so I could see this meaning "will take joy in one's own misfortune." Maybe.
τινι "to anyone/anything" (dative)
ἐπὶ τῷ διορθώματι "for a means of correction, or setting right." http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=diorqw%2Fmati&la=greek&can=diorqw%2Fmati0&prior=tw=|&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0257:book=10:chapter=1&i=1#lexicon

As y'all know, my ancient Greek is rudimentary, but I could see this line meaning that the wise one rejoices in their own misfortunes because they can use it as a means of correction for themselves. If they mess up, it's seen as an opportunity for correction. I would need to see more translations but I think that's at least plausible looking at the Greek.

Not knowing Greek, I'm focused on "but only for his correction." A related sentiment might be:

VS74: "In a scholarly debate, he who loses gains more because he has learned something."

Well, this is interesting:

Yonge translates that line in combination with the preceding one:

Quote

he will propitiate an absolute ruler when occasion requires, and will humor him for the sake of correcting his habits;

https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/diogene…ok-10#part-10-1

Skeptical of this, but this adds even more ambiguity to the question.

https://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manusc…es_laertius.htm That's an interesting article on the manuscripts and printed editions of DL's Lives.

This is a *perfect* example of the hazards of reading only *one* translation of an ancient text (or, in fact, any non-English original text in translation).

http://www.mikrosapoplous.gr/dl/dl10.html

Oh! Now this is interesting!! This Greek text (based on Long, it looked like) refers to Usener fragments!

καὶ ἐπιχαρήσεσθαί (fg. 592 Us.) τινι ἐπὶ τῷ διορθώματι

LOL! Usener fragment 592 just lists this line from Diogenes Laertius! So, DL *is* the source for this line.

However, Usener didn't include the part about the ruler μόναρχον in fragment 592. He put that as fragment 577. So, I'm not sure where Yonge is getting his interpretation.

Quote from Godfrey

Not knowing Greek, I'm focused on "but only for his correction." A related sentiment might be:

VS74: "In a scholarly debate, he who loses gains more because he has learned something."

Excellent observation, Godfrey !!

Quote

"...And inspired before the same loud clamor, some will strive with the effort of Apollophanes [the Stoic] to advance wonderfully to the podium, but others, having landed in [philosophy's] harbor and with hopes offered them that 'not even the venerable flame of Zeus would be able to prevent them taking from the highest point of the citadel' a life that is happy, afterwards, in spite of opposing winds...." (Philodemus, P.Herc 463)

Suppose a small gang of people in poverty are set on committing theft: Let's say one member of the group (we'll call them "Buddy") has a change of heart and decides to go home at the last minute. Fast-forward several months ... the rest of the group has been caught and sentenced.

Prior to the group being sentenced, Buddy felt apprehension, knowing that, maybe, he could have gotten away with it. If he had, the money he acquired could have helped him escape poverty, as it may potentially for the rest of the gang who went through with the theft.

Just before sentencing, Buddy was kicking himself in the pants.

Upon the gang being sentenced, Buddy feels tremendous relief, like drinking water when thirsty, or eating when hungry, or making a sound choice when anxious. Their sentencing indicates that Buddy was prudent and made the profitable choice. Prior to the gang being sentenced, Buddy felt anxiety. The moment of the sentencing, Buddy feels vindicated.

It would be a mistake to view Buddy as being a sadist for feeling pleasure at a situation that leads others to pain; it would also be a mistake to judge Buddy for not choosing to perform a sacrificial act of altruism (such as taking credit for the theft to release his "friends").

I like your way of thinking, Eikadistes ! We can take pleasure in learning from others mistakes "for setting right" our own choices without taking pleasure in the actual misfortune of others. Learn by observation but not Schadenfreude.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

This is a *perfect* example of the hazards of reading only *one* translation of an ancient text (or, in fact, any non-English original text in translation).

As another example, I'm still trying to determine whether Epicurus wanted me to get married or not!

That is an excellent example. Here's my take: https://sites.google.com/view/epicurean…l-relationships

There's a consistent metaphor of harbors and storms at sea through Epicurean lore, inspired both by both Odysseus' shipwreck on the island of the Phaeacians and the later association of Epicurus with his own shipwreck, prior to establishing the Garden. Using this same metaphor, Lucretius explains how it can be pleasure to watch the vast travails of others:

Quote

"It's sweet, when winds blow wild on open seas,

to watch from land your neighbor's vast travail,

not that men's miseries bring us dear delight

but that to see what ills we're spared is sweet;

sweet, too, to watch the cruel contest of war

ranging the field when you need share no danger.

But nothing is sweeter than to dwell in peace

high in the well-walled temples of the wise,

whence looking down we may see other men

wavering, wandering, seeking a way of life

with wit against wit, line against noble line,

contending, striving, straining night and day,

to rise to the top of the heap, High Lord of Things.

O wretched minds of men, O poor blind hearts!"

(De Rerum Natura translated by Frank O. Copley, Book 2, Lines 1-14)

Display More

I share a similar feeling with this analogy living in Florida with hurricanes. For me, the stormy skies are beautiful. The winds are still captivating. The exploding power transformers are magical. Skipping work is a relief. Knowing that I don't have to fight with crowds in public is a blessing. I've always had the privilege of living beneath a safe roof on high ground.

Hurricanes mean something completely different to lonely seniors, or people living in mobile homes, or homeless members of our society, or people living within modest means near the seashore. To them, this event is an existential threat. It's not a joke, it's not a poetic metaphor, it's not something at which to smile. It's terrifying, tragic, and life-changing.

I have never lived through a non-deadly hurricane. Every hurricane for which I have been present has always lead to at least one drowning. While I was watching those trees dance in the wind, others were hiding on a floor while a tree fell through their roof. The juxtaposition between peoples' experiences based on their levels of security is staggering.

That juxtaposition also provides a learning opportunity. For every person that dies of disease, there was a case study that contributes to a future treatment. For every drowning during a hurricane, civil engineers design better and better structures, and people adopt safer and safer practices. It is always a pleasure to grow wiser and practice prudence.

From my perspective, I think we've cracked the meaning of that phrase which on first impression seemed to have a negative connotation. We take pleasure in escaping the misfortune experienced by others, not in their misfortune itself. We also need to learn from that misfortune "for our own correction." How can we apply what we learn from seeing others' misfortune in our own lives to be not at the mercy of Fortune? If we don't apply it, we are not leading a "wise" life.

How's that?

Quote from Cassius

And I agree we do want to live a "wise" life because we don't place wisdom as a goal in itself, but employ it among the most valuable tools we can have to pursue our goal (happiness/pleasure) as successfully as possible.

Amen! (We need an Epicurean equivalent of that )* Practical, sensible wisdom - phronimos - is one of the three characteristics Epicurus singles out for living a pleasurable life in PD5

*The closest we seem to come is Παιὰν ἄναξ Paian anax.