1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Epicurean Texts
  4. Epicurus - Principal Doctrines
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

PD22 - Thoughts On PD 22

  • Cassius
  • February 2, 2021 at 11:21 AM
  • Go to last post
Sunday Weekly Zoom.  12:30 PM EDT - This week's discussion topic: "The Universe Is Infinite In Size And Eternal In Time." To find out how to attend CLICK HERE. To read more on the discussion topic CLICK HERE.
Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    103,788
    Posts
    14,209
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • February 2, 2021 at 11:21 AM
    • #1

    [Thanks to Matt for this post]

    “We must consider both the real purpose and all the evidence of direct perception, to which we always refer the conclusions of opinion; otherwise, all will be full of doubt and confusion.”

    -Principal Doctrine 22

    “τὸ ὑφεστηκὸς δεῖ τέλος ἐπιλογίζεσθαι καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν ἐνάργειαν, ἐφʼ ἣν τὰ δοξαζόμενα ἀνάγομεν· εἰ δὲ μὴ πάντα ἀκρισίας καὶ ταραχῆς ἔσται μεστά.”

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    103,788
    Posts
    14,209
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • February 2, 2021 at 11:22 AM
    • #2

    A few thoughts:

    (1) I read "real purpose" and "all the evidence of direct perception" to be two different things, adding up to A: the ultimate goal of pleasure and B: the faculties of sense given to us by nature (as opposed to rationalism / idealism)

    (2) I read "to which we always refer the conclusions of opinion" to mean that we are to judge the correctness of our opinions according to both (a) our specific context as measured by our faculties, and (b) our continuing general assessment of the goal of life, which is generally pleasure and not any more specific goal of virtue or salvation or whatever.

    (3) And I read the ultimate point being that not only the best path toward our goal, but also the way to avoid fear, uncertainty, and doubt, is to keep this dual process constantly at work in our minds, meaning that we should constantly both (a) use our faculties to take stock of our immediate circumstances and(b) use that information to make decisions which are best suited to attain the ultimate goal (pleasure), even if for the moment we defer pleasure or even choose something painful.

    Anyone see things significantly differently?

  • Elayne
    03 - Full Member
    Points
    3,093
    Posts
    455
    • February 2, 2021 at 3:16 PM
    • #3

    Cassius I agree with a couple of minor deviations. I wouldn't contrast direct perceptions with reason/idealism by saying nature "gave" (metaphorically) one and not the other. Obviously our ability to reason and idealize is evolved naturally-- it sure isn't supernatural 😂. It's just that one involves contact with external reality and the other involves further neurological processing.

    And under your point 3, I would not say we only refer to immediate perceptions, which are fleeting-- it would be hard if not impossible to do that anyway. In a way, all our conscious perception is of events slightly preceding awareness anyway. So I would include memory, although the longer ago, the more we rewrite our memories. If we didn't include past perceptions at all, though, we wouldn't have any stable experience of reality.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    103,788
    Posts
    14,209
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • February 2, 2021 at 3:34 PM
    • #4

    I see Elli and Matt discussed this further:

    Elli:

    Αctually, in the greek text there are not the words "purpose", and the word "both". Instead for the word "purpose" is the greek word "telos" that means goal/end.

    transl. XXII. (22) We must consider in the real end of life and all its obvious truth (i.e the obvious truth of the end), on which we base these that we think are right. Otherwise, everything will be full of wrong judgments and turmoil.


    And more at this link - https://www.facebook.com/groups/Epicure…628327833882817

  • Cassius July 5, 2025 at 4:55 PM

    Moved the thread from forum PD 22 - We must consider both the real purpose and all the evidence of direct... to forum Epicurus - Principal Doctrines.
  • Cassius July 5, 2025 at 5:17 PM

    Changed the title of the thread from “Thoughts On PD 22” to “PD22 - Thoughts On PD 22”.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Mocking Epithets 2

      • Like 2
      • Bryan
      • July 4, 2025 at 3:01 PM
      • Comparing Epicurus With Other Philosophers - General Discussion
      • Bryan
      • July 6, 2025 at 11:18 AM
    2. Replies
      2
      Views
      136
      2
    3. Eikadistes

      July 6, 2025 at 11:18 AM
    1. Best Lucretius translation? 12

      • Like 1
      • Rolf
      • June 19, 2025 at 8:40 AM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Rolf
      • July 1, 2025 at 1:59 PM
    2. Replies
      12
      Views
      718
      12
    3. Eikadistes

      July 1, 2025 at 1:59 PM
    1. Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources 19

      • Like 1
      • Cassius
      • April 1, 2022 at 5:36 PM
      • Philodemus On Anger
      • Cassius
      • June 30, 2025 at 8:54 AM
    2. Replies
      19
      Views
      6.3k
      19
    3. Don

      June 30, 2025 at 8:54 AM
    1. The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura 4

      • Thanks 1
      • Kalosyni
      • June 12, 2025 at 12:03 PM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Kalosyni
      • June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      736
      4
    3. Godfrey

      June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    1. New Blog Post From Elli - " Fanaticism and the Danger of Dogmatism in Political and Religious Thought: An Epicurean Reading"

      • Like 3
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
      • Epicurus vs Abraham (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      1.7k

Latest Posts

  • Welcome Dlippman!

    Cassius July 6, 2025 at 11:47 AM
  • Mocking Epithets

    Eikadistes July 6, 2025 at 11:18 AM
  • Epicurus And The Dylan Thomas Poem - "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night"

    Cassius July 6, 2025 at 11:17 AM
  • Welcome Ben Hari!

    Cassius July 6, 2025 at 11:14 AM
  • Johari windows useful in Epicurean philosophy? (thread started by Adrastus)

    Eikadistes July 6, 2025 at 11:06 AM
  • Prolepsis of the gods

    Eikadistes July 6, 2025 at 10:43 AM
  • What amount of effort should be put into pursuing pleasure or removing pain?

    Patrikios July 6, 2025 at 10:14 AM
  • What place does "simple" have in Epicureanism?

    Adrastus July 6, 2025 at 9:41 AM
  • Did Epicurus Commit Suicide Due To His Disease? (Merger of Two Threads On When Voluntary Death Makes Sense)

    Cassius July 6, 2025 at 8:56 AM
  • Episode 289 - TD19 - "Is The Wise Man Subject To Anger, Envy, or Pity?" To Be Recorded

    Cassius July 6, 2025 at 7:14 AM

Similar Threads

  • Episode Fifty-Five - Reason Is Dependent On The Senses (Part 2)

    • Cassius
    • January 23, 2021 at 10:38 AM
    • The Lucretius Today Podcast
  • "Nothing Comes from Nothing" and Parmenides

    • Matt
    • January 21, 2021 at 9:00 AM
    • Nothing Can Be Created From Nothing - Nothing Can Be Destroyed To Nothing
  • Dialectics and Hypothetical Questions

    • Cassius
    • January 18, 2021 at 7:05 PM
    • Canonics - General Discussion
  • On "Happiness" As An Abstraction / "Pleasure" As a Feeling

    • Cassius
    • October 1, 2019 at 12:13 PM
    • Happiness and its Relationship to Pleasure

Tags

  • PD22

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design