1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Files
    5. Search Assistance
    6. Not NeoEpicurean
    7. Foundations
    8. Navigation Outlines
    9. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Collection
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Files
    5. Search Assistance
    6. Not NeoEpicurean
    7. Foundations
    8. Navigation Outlines
    9. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Collection
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Files
    5. Search Assistance
    6. Not NeoEpicurean
    7. Foundations
    8. Navigation Outlines
    9. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Collection
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Physics - The Nature Of The Universe
  4. Physics - General Discussion
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Use and Misuse of "Images" and "Fantastic Impressions"

  • Cassius
  • March 14, 2017 at 5:13 PM

We are now requiring that new registrants confirm their request for an account by email.  Once you complete the "Sign Up" process to set up your user name and password, please send an email to the New Accounts Administator to obtain new account approval.

Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    106,830
    Posts
    14,673
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • March 14, 2017 at 5:13 PM
    • #1

    There is mention in Lucretius about how images floating throug the air strike us, even when we are asleep, and that these images striking our brains (at least, not through our *open* eyes) create stimulation that leads to dreams and sometimes thinking we see things that we really don't.

    (1) One problem is if people use this to conclude that we are seeing pictures of real gods moving among us. That would be wrong and would be a "false anticipation" because we know from other reasoning about the gods that they are perfectly blissful, and in the intermundia, and so there is no way we are going to see them moving around us. Even if we received images all the way from the intermundia (which apparently there was speculation that we do), those images would only be of blissful and perfect beings who have no interest in us.

    (2) Another problem is that some later Epicureans elevated this process of receiving images, forming a concept, and then comparing those concepts to what we see in the future. (I think DeWitt speculates probably in response to Stoic drumbeating about the importance of logic.) And they considered this extended process to be a "fourth leg of the canon" in addition to the three that Epicurus had stated. The error here is that "concepts" are formed in our mind only after we make judgments about what we get from the three canonical faculties, and the process of making judgments involves opinion and the possibility of error. Thus although this process of forming concepts is very important and useful, it is not safe to call it a "test of truth" because the concept we are using could be erroneous. Yes any sensation can be erroneous, but we trust the canonical faculties to be programmed by nature and not by ourselves. Concepts formed by our judgment/opinion could be totally erroneous and are not subject to the same natural correction mechanism as for example "looking twice" would do it for the eyes.

    The second issue is a generalization of the first. We would conclude that a concept of an actively intervening god is a "false opinion/concept" because it is not based on any proof and it is contradicted by other evidence (our other observations from images and our reasoning about things that are "perfect"). If the person arguing for the false concept of an active god is alleging that he saw a vision of a god visiting him, then we can't necessarily rule out that he saw "something," because all sorts of images are flying through the air. But we would conclude that his perception of the image was distorted or a "false anticipation" in the same way that we see images of oars in water being distorted. Just like with vision or any other sense, a perception from a canonical faculty is reported "truly" (honestly) but that is not to say that the perception conveys all the facts accurately.

    Those are the two issues I see being raised most often about the flow of atoms and how we process them. Going in the direction of a "fourth leg of the canon" has the potential to let the nose of dialectical logic into the canon. The people who think that the existence of images can be used to prove the existence of active gods are not considering that these images can be distorted, and distorted images can be just as false to the facts as a view of a tower that appears round at a distance but is really square.

    Note: Letter to Menoeceus (Bailey) For gods there are, since the knowledge of them is by clear vision. But they are not such as the many believe them to be: for indeed they do not consistently represent them as they believe them to be. And the impious man is not he who popularly denies the gods of the many, but he who attaches to the gods the beliefs of the many. For the statements of the many about the gods are not conceptions derived from sensation, but false suppositions, according to which the greatest misfortunes befall the wicked and the greatest blessings (the good) by the gift of the gods. For men being accustomed always to their own virtues welcome those like themselves, but regard all that is not of their nature as alien.

  • Cassius July 30, 2025 at 9:56 AM

    Moved the thread from forum Images to forum Physics - General Discussion.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Studies on Epicurus' Influence on Marx 14

      • Love 1
      • Titus
      • May 11, 2020 at 1:35 PM
      • Comparing Epicurus With Other Philosophers - General Discussion
      • Titus
      • October 21, 2025 at 9:33 AM
    2. Replies
      14
      Views
      9.2k
      14
    3. DaveT

      October 21, 2025 at 9:33 AM
    1. The Nature of the Mind, the Spirit, and Death 1

      • Like 3
      • Kalosyni
      • March 11, 2024 at 9:27 AM
      • Book 3
      • Kalosyni
      • October 19, 2025 at 4:55 PM
    2. Replies
      1
      Views
      2.3k
      1
    3. Kalosyni

      October 19, 2025 at 4:55 PM
    1. What Are Some Epicurean Tips to Deal With Anxiety Over Painful Scenarios? 4

      • Thanks 1
      • SillyApe
      • October 18, 2025 at 11:52 AM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • SillyApe
      • October 19, 2025 at 1:01 PM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      486
      4
    3. SillyApe

      October 19, 2025 at 1:01 PM
    1. New Youtube Video - "Epicurus Responding to His Haters" - October 2025 4

      • Like 2
      • Cassius
      • October 5, 2025 at 3:55 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Cassius
      • October 17, 2025 at 10:39 AM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      1.3k
      4
    3. Cassius

      October 17, 2025 at 10:39 AM
    1. Preparing A Public Domain Audio And Text Version Lucretius In Modern American English 4

      • Cassius
      • October 16, 2025 at 2:42 PM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Cassius
      • October 16, 2025 at 3:24 PM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      501
      4
    3. Cassius

      October 16, 2025 at 3:24 PM

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

What's the best strategy for finding things on EpicureanFriends.com? Here's a suggested search strategy:

  • First, familiarize yourself with the list of forums. The best way to find threads related to a particular topic is to look in the relevant forum. Over the years most people have tried to start threads according to forum topic, and we regularly move threads from our "general discussion" area over to forums with more descriptive titles.
  • Use the "Search" facility at the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere." Also check the "Search Assistance" page.
  • Use the "Tag" facility, starting with the "Key Tags By Topic" in the right hand navigation pane, or using the "Search By Tag" page, or the "Tag Overview" page which contains a list of all tags alphabetically. We curate the available tags to keep them to a manageable number that is descriptive of frequently-searched topics.

Resources

  1. Getting Started At EpicureanFriends
  2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
  3. The Major Doctrines of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  4. Introductory Videos
  5. Wiki
  6. Lucretius Today Podcast
    1. Podcast Episode Guide
  7. Key Epicurean Texts
    1. Side-By-Side Diogenes Laertius X (Bio And All Key Writings of Epicurus)
    2. Side-By-Side Lucretius - On The Nature Of Things
    3. Lucretius Topical Outline
    4. Fragment Collection
  8. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. FAQ Discussions
  9. Full List of Forums
    1. Physics Discussions
    2. Canonics Discussions
    3. Ethics Discussions
    4. All Recent Forum Activities
  10. Image Gallery
  11. Featured Articles
  12. Featured Blog Posts
  13. Quiz Section
  14. Activities Calendar
  15. Special Resource Pages
  16. File Database
  17. Site Map
    1. Home

Frequently Used Forums

  • Frequently Asked / Introductory Questions
  • News And Announcements
  • Lucretius Today Podcast
  • Physics (The Nature of the Universe)
  • Canonics (The Tests Of Truth)
  • Ethics (How To Live)
  • Against Determinism
  • Against Skepticism
  • The "Meaning of Life" Question
  • Uncategorized Discussion
  • Comparisons With Other Philosophies
  • Historical Figures
  • Ancient Texts
  • Decline of The Ancient Epicurean Age
  • Unsolved Questions of Epicurean History
  • Welcome New Participants
  • Events - Activism - Outreach
  • Full Forum List

Latest Posts

  • On The Importance of Physics To Ethics (A Post By Elli At Facebook)

    Cassius October 26, 2025 at 8:56 AM
  • Welcome MarkJW

    Cassius October 26, 2025 at 8:53 AM
  • Torquatus - In Defense of Epicurus - New Home Page Video

    Cassius October 26, 2025 at 2:57 AM
  • Episode 305 - Not yet released

    Cassius October 25, 2025 at 11:05 PM
  • Should Epicureans Celebrate Something Else Instead of Celebrating Halloween?

    Eikadistes October 25, 2025 at 10:38 PM
  • Welcome LukeTN9

    Don October 25, 2025 at 2:47 PM
  • Happy Birthday General Thread

    Joshua October 25, 2025 at 1:23 PM
  • Episode 304 - TD32 - Epicurus vs. The Stoics On Strong Emotions

    Cassius October 25, 2025 at 10:10 AM
  • Reasoning through the Letter to Menoeceus' On the Gods

    Eikadistes October 24, 2025 at 5:02 PM
  • Spitting Upon the Beautiful...

    Cassius October 24, 2025 at 4:06 PM

Frequently Used Tags

In addition to posting in the appropriate forums, participants are encouraged to reference the following tags in their posts:

  • #Physics
    • #Atomism
    • #Gods
    • #Images
    • #Infinity
    • #Eternity
    • #Life
    • #Death
  • #Canonics
    • #Knowledge
    • #Scepticism
  • #Ethics

    • #Pleasure
    • #Pain
    • #Engagement
    • #EpicureanLiving
    • #Happiness
    • #Virtue
      • #Wisdom
      • #Temperance
      • #Courage
      • #Justice
      • #Honesty
      • #Faith (Confidence)
      • #Suavity
      • #Consideration
      • #Hope
      • #Gratitude
      • #Friendship



Click Here To Search All Tags

To Suggest Additions To This List Click Here

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design