1. New
  2. Home
    1. Get Started - Activities
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Member Announcements
    7. Site Map
    8. Quizzes
    9. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    10. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  3. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  4. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. New
  2. Home
    1. Get Started - Activities
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Member Announcements
    7. Site Map
    8. Quizzes
    9. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    10. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  3. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  4. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. New
  2. Home
    1. Get Started - Activities
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Member Announcements
    7. Site Map
    8. Quizzes
    9. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    10. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  3. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  4. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Ethics - How To Live As An Epicurean
  4. Only Two Feelings - Pleasure and Pain - The Term Pleasure Includes Tranquility, Meaningfulness, Katastematic, Kinetic, Etc.
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

What A Mess This K / K Issue Is - Here is Someone Saying These are "The Most Dominant Terms In Epicurus' Theory of Pleasures"

  • Cassius
  • March 11, 2020 at 7:49 AM
  • Go to last post
Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • March 11, 2020 at 7:49 AM
    • #1

    WHEN THERE IS NO RECORD OF EPICURUS HIMSELF USING THESE TERMS AT ALL!

    I haven't had time to read the article - maybe there is something redeeming about it beyond this blurb....

  • Charles
    03 - Member
    Points
    2,582
    Posts
    348
    Quizzes
    4
    Quiz rate
    88.9 %
    • March 13, 2020 at 12:00 PM
    • #2

    If I'm not mistaken, they, meaning the words katastematic and kinetic show up in fragmentary form penned by Epicurus, the first compiled source I can think of is Epicurea (1887) http://www.attalus.org/translate/epicurus.html

    However, the concept definitely has some grounding, as "static pleasures" are given their own paragraph in Laertius. We can reason that this is merely a departure from the Cyrenaic tradition and conception of pleasure and the writing serves to distinct the two philosophies, not to encapsulate and reduce all of Epicurus' ideas of pleasure dyanamics (moving vs static).

    Whether or not the K / K Issue is strictly contemporary for us or not, I'm not sure of, but it definitely seems that way as throughout history Epicurus was more or less seen as the "lord of vice" or "master of pleasures" which leads to the modern definition of "Epicurean" or "Epicurious" and its relation to being a gourmand of culinary arts, as opposed to the bread and water depiction.

    “If the joys found in nature are crimes, then man’s pleasure and happiness is to be criminal.”

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • March 13, 2020 at 1:15 PM
    • #3

    I have been reading the Gosling & Taylor and Nikolsky articles in the Library here. They are fascinating and I thank Cassius for recommending them. I simply took the kinetic/katastematic categories to be accepted fact. Those articles are an eye-opener in arguing persuasively that that isn't necessarily so.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • March 13, 2020 at 2:11 PM
    • #4

    Charles when you get a chance check out the Nikolsky article in particular. He explains how Laertius could be way off base, and of course Laertius was writing - what - at least 300 years after Epicurus?

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • March 13, 2020 at 3:35 PM
    • #5

    I thought it might be helpful for this discussion to put the major players into historical context. How far removed from Epicurus was Cicero? How about Diogenes Laertius? Who was a contemporary of who? Who had access to whom?


    Here's a little scorecard:

    Name, birth and death, Years +/- from Epicurus' birth

    • Socrates (470 – 399 BCE) (E -129)
    • Democritus (b. c.460 BCE) (E -119)
    • Plato (428-423 – 348/347 BCE) (E -87)
    • Aristotle (384 – 322 BCE) (E -43)
    • Epicurus (341 – 270 BCE) (E 0)
    • Zeno of Citium (c. 334 – c. 262 BCE) (E +7)
    • Metrodorus of Lampsacus (331 – 277 BCE) (E +10)
    • Hermarchus (325 – 250 BCE) (E +16)
    • Zeno of Sidon (150 – 75 BCE) (E +191)
    • Philodemus (110 – 35 BCE) (E +231)
    • Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 – 43 BCR) (E +235)
    • Titus Lucretius Carus (b. 94 BCE) (E +247)
    • Quintus Horatius Flaccus ("Horace", 65 – 8 BCE) (E +276)
    • Epictetus (55 – 135 CE) (E +396)
    • Diogenes of Oenoanda (wall dated 117 – 138 CE) (E +458)
    • Diogenes Laërtius (b. 180 - 240 CE) (E +521)

    Edited 2 times, last by Don: added Democritus; corrected order (March 13, 2020 at 4:09 PM).

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • March 13, 2020 at 4:06 PM
    • #6

    EXCELLENT CHART - Thank you Eugenios!!!!

  • Online
    Joshua
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    14,953
    Posts
    1,894
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    95.8 %
    • March 16, 2020 at 1:39 PM
    • #7

    Your chart calls to mind a project that I'd like to see done, Eugenios. What I wanted to do was make a timeline of Epicurean influence similar to this chart from the Marvel Cinematic Universe;

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3d/5…fe9e0cf4523.jpg

    In my vision, the color lines would coordinate to different levels of agreement. There would be a golden line linking true 'canon' figures, and other colors radiating off of them to other prominent figures. We might start with purple, for example, to represent physics; red to represent the pleasure-principle; green to represent non-theism; black to represent antagonism; and so on.

    So we would start with a circle to the far left with a portrait (where possible) and name of, say, Democritus. A dotted purple line representing influence but not total agreement would surround Democritus and Leucippus and lead to Epicurus. Epicurus would be a larger circle with gold in the first ring and the other colors working toward the outside. This line would then connect all of the scholarchs; Philodemus; Diogenes of Oenoanda; Lucretius; Francis Wright; DeWitt.

    A separate line might then cut away, say from Lucretius' circle. A purple line running out toward Gassendi, indicating an agreement with physics. A dotted purple and red line toward Montaigne, indicating strong influence but not agreement. A purple, red, and green line running toward La Mettrie, indicating broad agreement to a greater or lesser degree with physics, pleasure, and non-theism. A line from Francis Wright to Thomas Jefferson indicating an agreement with physics and pleasure, but a dotted green line indicating his tendency toward Deism.

    And so forth! No doubt problems would emerge as it was drafted, and disagreements would arise over canon figures. But a chart like this would allow one at a glance to take in the whole sweep of Epicurean history.

    I'm certain I'll never get around to doing it, but if someone more gifted than myself with visual software had a mind I'd love to see the result!

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • March 16, 2020 at 2:59 PM
    • #8

    Wow that would be great. That reminds me that long ago set this up. So long I have forgotten about it, and I hate to think about how accurate (or not) I was then! It might serve as a help to someone to get started

    https://www.xmind.net/m/SwVU/

  • Cassius August 23, 2024 at 2:32 PM

    Moved the thread from forum Two Equal-Rank Categories Within "Pleasure" - Stimulative/Kinetic And Non-Stimulative/Katastematic to forum Only Two Feelings - Pleasure and Pain.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Who are capable of figuring the problem out 5

      • Like 1
      • Patrikios
      • June 5, 2025 at 4:25 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Patrikios
      • June 6, 2025 at 6:54 PM
    2. Replies
      5
      Views
      289
      5
    3. Patrikios

      June 6, 2025 at 6:54 PM
    1. What fears does modern science remove, as Epicurean physics did in antiquity? 31

      • Like 5
      • sanantoniogarden
      • June 2, 2025 at 3:35 PM
      • General Discussion
      • sanantoniogarden
      • June 6, 2025 at 2:05 PM
    2. Replies
      31
      Views
      899
      31
    3. Don

      June 6, 2025 at 2:05 PM
    1. Porphyry - Letter to Marcella -"Vain Is the Word of the Philosopher..." 17

      • Like 1
      • Cassius
      • June 12, 2023 at 11:34 AM
      • Usener Collection
      • Cassius
      • June 3, 2025 at 11:17 PM
    2. Replies
      17
      Views
      5.8k
      17
    3. Bryan

      June 3, 2025 at 11:17 PM
    1. Daily life of ancient Epicureans / 21st Century Epicureans 38

      • Like 3
      • Robert
      • May 21, 2025 at 8:23 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Robert
      • May 29, 2025 at 1:44 PM
    2. Replies
      38
      Views
      2.8k
      38
    3. Pacatus

      May 29, 2025 at 1:44 PM
    1. Emily Austin's "LIving For Pleasure" Wins Award. (H/T to Lowri for finding this!)

      • Like 4
      • Cassius
      • May 28, 2025 at 10:57 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Cassius
      • May 28, 2025 at 10:57 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      249

Latest Posts

  • Tsouna's On Choices and Avoidances

    Robert June 8, 2025 at 1:37 AM
  • Episode 285 - Not Yet Recorded - Cicero Attacks Epicurus' PD04 And Says Virtue And Honor Is the Way To Overcome Bodily Pain

    Cassius June 7, 2025 at 3:12 PM
  • Updated Thoughts on the Question of "Peace and Safety" in the Works of Norman Dewitt

    Joshua June 7, 2025 at 2:02 PM
  • Who are capable of figuring the problem out

    Patrikios June 6, 2025 at 6:54 PM
  • What fears does modern science remove, as Epicurean physics did in antiquity?

    Don June 6, 2025 at 2:05 PM
  • Sunday, June 15 - Topic: The Letter of Cosma Raimondi

    Cassius June 6, 2025 at 1:46 PM
  • Welcome Balin!

    sanantoniogarden June 6, 2025 at 1:08 PM
  • Sunday, June 8, 2025 - Discussion Topic - "Practice" In Relation To Pain, Pleasure, and Happiness

    Cassius June 6, 2025 at 9:26 AM
  • What if Kyriai Doxai was NOT a list?

    Don June 5, 2025 at 7:12 AM
  • EpicureanFriends WIKI 2025 - Upgrades, Revisions, Planning

    Cassius June 4, 2025 at 2:23 PM

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design