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Cassius
FileJanuary 23, 2026 at 11:29 AM -
Cassius
PostJanuary 23, 2026 at 11:16 AM As to other ancient sources beyond Diogenes Laertius and Cicero that might be of help, I see that Diogenes of Oinoanda repeats the main citations but offers no additional explanation:
Fragment 32
Each (virtue?) therefore ............... means of (?) ...… -
Cassius
PostJanuary 23, 2026 at 11:11 AM As to Lucretius, I am finding zero reference to the natural and necessary categories. There are lots of ethical references in Lucretius to restraining desires, but I am not seeing the specific "natural and necessary" classification.
I find this even more… -
Cassius
PostJanuary 23, 2026 at 11:01 AM Thanks for those quotes Bryan!
Those lead me to ask: In this context does "convention" focus on "agreement between multiple people"? I could almost seeing these quotes referring to "the conclusions of reason" or even something indicated by prolepsis /… -
Cassius
PostJanuary 23, 2026 at 10:53 AM I am going to attempt to see what other citations I can find that might shed light on the relationship. I woke up this morning thinking that given how ethically-oriented it is, surely Frances Wright at least mentions the natural and necessary categories… -
Bryan
PostJanuary 23, 2026 at 10:50 AM I will throw in a few related quotes:
"Epicurus {as reported by Colotes} acts with the purest effrontery when he claims to lay down the same first principles, but nevertheless does not say that "color is by convention" and thus the qualities sweet,… -
Godfrey
PostJanuary 23, 2026 at 10:40 AM Rereading my last post, it would seem that I do agree with "we would never... pursue a desire that is neither natural or necessary." I pursue desires that are unnecessary, but I do try to avoid the unnatural.
To my embarrassment it seems that I misread… -
Kalosyni
January 23, 2026 at 10:31 AM Replied to the thread Fourth Sunday Zoom - Jan. 25, 2026 - Epicurean Philosophy Discussion Via Zoom - Agenda.PostA shout-out to our newer members and anyone who hasn't previously attended a Zoom meeting...
Inviting all forum members to "Fourth Sunday" (this next Sunday)...which will have time for questions about the forum and Epicurean philosophy.
And Cassius will be… -
Cassius
ThreadJanuary 23, 2026 at 4:52 AM This is a discussion that originated in the recent Zoom in which we were discussing the relationship between "hedonic calculus analysis" and "natural/necessary analysis." It's really a part of that discussion, but the question is of such significance… -
Godfrey
PostJanuary 23, 2026 at 12:46 AM -
Eikadistes
January 23, 2026 at 12:04 AM Replied to the thread New "TWENTIERS" Website.PostI took a swing at Karneískos' fragment to Philístas and published it here.
The text was translated from P.Herc. 1027. -
Cleveland Okie
January 22, 2026 at 11:39 PM Replied to the thread The "Suggested Further Reading" in "Living for Pleasure".PostMatteng I second Joshua's recommendation of The Swerve. Aside from its Epicurean interest, it is a really fun read.
If "Epicureanism in the Renaissance" is an interest for some of y'all, I would also recommend Ada Palmer's Reading Lucretius in the… -
Cassius
January 22, 2026 at 9:10 PM Replied to the thread "The Summum Bonum Fallacy" - General Discussion of DeWitt's Article.PostYes we have two parallel sets of comments. I don't think Sedley is attaching blame. He seems to accept the Latin terminology as valid and a reasonable choice by Cicero.
The trouble is on our end because we read more onto the construction than a Roman… -
Cassius
January 22, 2026 at 8:53 PM Replied to the thread Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics - Article By David Sedley.PostAs an aside here Joshua I think we are seeing in going through Tusculan Disputations how important it was to Cicero (and presumably the Stoics) to say that there is only a single good - virtue - and that nothing else is truly good. That allows them to… -
Cassius
January 22, 2026 at 8:34 PM Replied to the thread Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics - Article By David Sedley.Post[…]
I dont recall that he mentions that. And in fact as I read it he's not really being critical of Cicero's choice to use "summum bonum." I gather what he's saying is that it makes perfect sense in Latin to do it the way Cicero did it.
The problem arises… -
Joshua
January 22, 2026 at 8:34 PM Replied to the thread "The Summum Bonum Fallacy" - General Discussion of DeWitt's Article.PostAs I mentioned in the other thread, Lucretius himself uses Summum Bonum. It's no good blaming Cicero before one addresses this! -
Joshua
January 22, 2026 at 8:30 PM Replied to the thread Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics - Article By David Sedley.PostHow does he respond to Lucretius' use of Summum Bonum in the early lines of Book 6? -
Joshua
January 22, 2026 at 8:26 PM Replied to the thread The "Suggested Further Reading" in "Living for Pleasure".PostGreenblatt was also invited to deliver a lecture connected with his book at the Getty Villa, which I also recommend watching!
m.youtube.com/watch?v=mXqHOF1B808 -
Joshua
January 22, 2026 at 8:24 PM Replied to the thread The "Suggested Further Reading" in "Living for Pleasure".Post[…]
I'm not very good about keeping up with the secondary literature, but The Swerve by Stephen Greenblatt was my main introduction to Epicureanism and I am always happy to write in his defense.
I first encountered Greenblatt's work as an under-graduate… -
Kalosyni
PostJanuary 22, 2026 at 6:47 PM -
Cassius
PostJanuary 22, 2026 at 6:31 PM […]
I should be clear too that it's not like we had a "fight" or anything! This variation on the topic is something that I don't think has been discussed here before - at least in this way - so we're very much in the mode of exploring the possibilities… -
Cassius
PostJanuary 22, 2026 at 6:27 PM […]
Just to be clear, "that" refers to what? -
Godfrey
PostJanuary 22, 2026 at 5:56 PM I specifically disagree with that
I rule out the unnatural desires, but find the unnecessary desires to be a source of great pleasure. The key to enjoying pleasures resulting from unnecessary desires is to realize that you can thrive without them and yet… -
wbernys
PostJanuary 22, 2026 at 3:57 PM […]
Frances Wright for the win!
I wonder if another reason he potentially didn't try to refute poetry so much was because of the extreme religious diversity in ancient Hreece with some having very different views on Homer, who was not really seen as… -
Cassius
PostJanuary 22, 2026 at 3:42 PM By coincidence I was posting earlier about an article by David Sedley, in which he makes the point that fundamental Epicurean argument in favor of both atomism and the pleasure of ethics involves refuting claims that contradict the view that you are… -
wbernys
ThreadJanuary 22, 2026 at 3:24 PM Didn't really know where to put this thread.
So before I became a full fledged Epicurean I was quite addicted to academic study of the Bible and Quran. Not for religious reasons but to be confident in my own opposition to religion. When I saw things like… -
Kalosyni
January 22, 2026 at 2:50 PM Replied to the thread Fourth Sunday Zoom - Jan. 25, 2026 - Epicurean Philosophy Discussion Via Zoom - Agenda.Postfyi - The Fourth Sunday topic that was posted earlier today has now been changed to: "Pleasure, Atoms, and the Foundations of Epicurean Ethics" - facilitated by Cassius.
The thread for on that article is here:
Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics -… -
Cassius
PostJanuary 22, 2026 at 2:47 PM […]
[…]
Comparing what Godfrey wrote with what Kalosyni wrote, I expect most of us are going to agree on the benefits of both methods of analysis.
The differences appear to me to come out with Godfrey's "I would begin...." because the point of division… -
Cassius
January 22, 2026 at 2:40 PM Replied to the thread The "Suggested Further Reading" in "Living for Pleasure".PostThank you Cleveland Oakie for taking the time to write up that review and adding it here! -
Cassius
January 22, 2026 at 2:28 PM Posted the thread Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics - Article By David Sedley.ThreadIn researching other issues I came across this article by David Sedley: Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics
While I have some issues with the first section, but that's only a brief summary of Epicurean ethics and not essential to the main point of…
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