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  • Kalosyni May 13, 2026 at 8:44 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    Don Regarding the formating of the Principal Doctrines , I just looked that up and found this (AI Google):

    Modern translators and classical scholars determine where one doctrine ends and the next begins by evaluating four primary lines of evidence: …

  • TauPhi May 12, 2026 at 10:57 PM

    Post
    […]

    This may partially answer your question, Dave:

    […]

  • Bryan May 12, 2026 at 10:41 PM

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    […]

    thank you for the question! I prefer when the answer rests in On Nature... but here we are On Lives only!



    1.ὁ ᾠκειωμένος

    10.37a. "ὅθεν, δὴ πᾶσι χρησίμης οὔσης τοῖς ᾠκειωμένοις φυσιολογίᾳ τῆς τοιαύτης ὁδοῦ..."
    ...therefore, certainly since such a course…

  • Don May 12, 2026 at 9:33 PM

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    […]

    Do you have the citations/references for those? I'm curious to check them out.

  • DaveT May 12, 2026 at 8:12 PM

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    I just finished watching three episodes in the Netflix series titled Kaos starring Jeff Goldblum as Zeus. It is an adult level comedy with the Greek gods set in modern times with ancient gods from mythology stories up to new tricks against each other and…

  • Bryan May 12, 2026 at 5:21 PM

    Post
    I agree with you, Cassius. I will parenthetically add that Epicurus does use all of these terms below, and it is clear that they are "grades" or "rankings" of one's advancement, but I doubt the divisions were very formalized.



  • Cassius May 12, 2026 at 4:47 PM

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    Great points. I certainly can't speak definitively but I gather some people think that Epicurus was frequently talking about "sages" in the sense of dedicated lifelong philosophers. There's a book out there "Epicurus The Sage" and i have never liked…

  • DaveT May 12, 2026 at 4:22 PM

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    I just finished reading this entire thread. Unless you all came to a final conclusion of whether or when Epicurus condoned marriage, which I did not pick up, I had another thought that might bear some scrutiny. And that is: What did he mean when he…

  • Don May 12, 2026 at 7:20 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    Thanks! Fixed.

  • Cassius May 12, 2026 at 7:10 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    Far be it for me to question anyone's typing but perhaps you meant a word other than "verified"?

  • Don May 12, 2026 at 7:03 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    Going back to the original purpose of this thread: the meaning of PD25 :

    As I've said ad nauseum in the past, the Principal Doctrines were not originally "versified" into separate Doctrines. It was one text, granted covering a number of topics but not…

  • Cassius May 12, 2026 at 4:05 AM

    Replied to the thread Happy Birthday General Thread.
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    Happy Birthday to Keith! Learn more about Keith and say happy birthday on Keith's timeline: Keith

  • Don May 11, 2026 at 10:51 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    Don't sweat it. That was a labor of love delving into the Greek. Translation masks a number of similar words that are there in the original.

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 10:46 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    Way to make me feel unlearned lol. It seems it is a bigger deal than i let on.

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 10:44 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    I see what you mean, especialli with the pet example, got a little void at home i would be lonely without. But that is the point to me, we engage in those joys which may have heartbreak because we want the pleasent memories and feelings of attachment…

  • Don May 11, 2026 at 10:28 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    There may not be many instances of the word ataraxia but terms similar to or derived from it show up in numerous places in the extant texts:

    From a post of mine from 2023:

    I am starting this thread to compile a list of every time the words Ataraxia,…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 10:17 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    I agree firmly with the idea that getting completely rid of bodily and mental pain constitutes the goal, and that having such a goal serves a very real purpose as identifying an organizing principal, and as I think that you mentioned earlier this is…

  • Don May 11, 2026 at 10:09 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    LOL I know that I'm never completely free from pain. Maybe I'm overgeneralizing though. There's always a twinge, ache, etc, somewhere in my body or mind. Now, if I try, I can ignore them for a bit. If I'm engrossed in a task or engaged in an activity…

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 10:08 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    You know the Greek better than i do but i tend to think it's the opposite. I think Epicurus' idea is that those existential dreads you mentioned is what's mainly holding humanity (even good and benevolent people) back from attaining Ataraxia (complete…

  • Don May 11, 2026 at 9:56 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    The discussion about mental and physical pain brings us right back around to ataraxia and aponia all over again.

    As time has gone on, I have come to a (semi-firm) belief that ataraxia is not about rooting out every single disturbing fear and anxiety of …

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 9:52 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    I worry this may be too strong. I think Epicurus would say that it is both possible to be completely free from pain and we in fact are completely free from pain quite often, i think he would just say the mortality means we sometimes can't and…

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 9:47 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    Seems right to me. I think Epicurus might think (personal conjecture) happiness may require absence of pain or joy in the mind, since the feelings of the mind are so intense, but i certainly think one can be "happy" even with pain in the flesh, as…

  • Don May 11, 2026 at 9:40 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    Agreed, because as mortal beings we can never be completely free from every pain, mental or physical.

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 8:47 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    Thanks for that clarification. Presuming that it is possible for one day to be happier than another, and that "happy" here doesn't imply a superlative state, then I sure would be happier without kidney disease than with it!

    But back to the more basic and…

  • Bryan May 11, 2026 at 8:26 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    Don, I agree with you that is the correct interpretation. It seems the confusion comes from the the superlative as translated by Seneca in Letters to Lucilius, 92.25, which uses "beātissimum"



    atquī haec Vōx in ipsā officīnā voluptātis audīta est "…

  • Don May 11, 2026 at 8:18 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
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    […]

    Exactly. Τὴν μακαρίαν... καὶ ἅμα τελευταίαν ἡμέραν τοῦ βίου "The blissful land at the same time last day of my life"

  • DaveT May 11, 2026 at 4:42 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    Cassius I see your point. Certainly thinking about the longer scale of times past does little good for living in the present. You know, there is no really "better or worse" in this context. And focusing "purely in terms of time", I agree, makes no…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 3:46 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    I think I know what you mean and i agree. However i personally try to avoid focusing the greater than / lesser than analysis purely in terms of "time," even in comparing the short term to the long term. It's probable that it's better to find a way…

  • DaveT May 11, 2026 at 3:28 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    This discussion is very interesting to me since it goes to the practicality of living in a reality of what you can sense, what you have experienced in the past, and our feelings of pleasure and pain. What challenges me, and perhaps all of us is the…

  • Don May 11, 2026 at 2:39 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    I've only caught up reading part way but I'll wade in here.

    I really don't care whether we talk about psychological hedonism or hedonism or whatever.

    What I come back to is that Epicurus said living creatures pursue pleasure and flee from pain. Stop.

    That's…

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