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  • Don May 11, 2026 at 2:39 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    I've only caught up reading part way but I'll wade in here.

    I really don't care whether we talk about psychological hedonism or hedonism or whatever.

    What I come back to is that Epicurus said living creatures pursue pleasure and flee from pain. Stop.

    That's…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 1:48 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    That second paragraph there from Frances Wright is in my view a good argument for why treating "Absence of pain" as the prime directive has to be explained very carefully.

    I know from the moment I first shake hands with a new friend that he may well die…

  • Bryan May 11, 2026 at 1:48 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    I'll start with this quote of Epicurus (Lives 10.135b):

    "...therefore, study these things and the things akin to them (by yourself, day and night, and with one similar to yourself) and you will never be thoroughly disturbed, neither in wakefulness nor…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 1:38 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    I agree that the distinction between bodily and mental pain is very important.

    […]



    But I am not sure we have discussed this before: Can even mental pain be totally eliminated / extinguished? What texts might you cite for that position that the mental pain…

  • Bryan May 11, 2026 at 1:30 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    We are all aware, but it is good to keep in mind that Epicurus distinguishes between bodily pain and mental pain.

    Bodily pain can often be mitigated by a prudent lifestyle -- but only mental pain can be fully eliminated through a prudent application of…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 1:22 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    Please do Don as I don't want Wbernys to think I am singling him out! :)

    This is one of my most long-running issues with how Epicurean philosophy is presented. Saying that "the goal is absence of pain" can be explained in a perfectly logical way. However…

  • Don May 11, 2026 at 1:05 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    Y'all have been active! I need to catch up on my lunch hour!

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 12:47 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    I agree with everything in that paragraph. The extra twist I would say rather than "important" I would say "the theoretical goal."

    And that gets to the issue - for humans we are not going to be able to eliminate all pain if we want the most happiness…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 12:44 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    Yep you are right as usual my typing is awful! Missed the NOT there!

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 12:34 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    Are you missing a "does not" in the middle here?

    Gonna be honest, I don't really see how we disagree, now I'm just kinda confused and want the conversation to be over, since I worry we're just talking past each other.

    Final post on topic. Then I'm done.…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 12:16 PM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    Well he's certainly not in the best condition he could possibly be, as no one would voluntarily choose kidney disease. But the general point is the happiness and predominance of pleasure do require total absence of pain, so it is perilous to summarize…

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 11:46 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    He never says it is among the happiest days of his life, he simply says it's a blissful/happy day and that he sets gladness of the mind towards past conversations, this allows him to have more pleasure than pain with the mind offsetting the pains of…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 11:36 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    And yet on the last day of his life Epicurus considered himself happy / and/or considered it to be among his happiest days despite his excruciating pain.

    How would you reconcile that with what you just wrote as quoted there?

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 11:19 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    I do agree that 1 is indefensible and needlessly asetic. I don't mind 2 as much but i sympathize with your points. I definitely think Epicurus thought removal of pain was centrally important, because we can't experience the height of pleasure while in…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 11:04 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    I see this discussion as extremely helpful as well on the question of how best to convey Epicurean philosophy to others.

    Here's another example of a similar issue, this from the blurb on "Martin the Epicurean" at Amazon:





    I would draw attention to the…

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 10:18 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    Yeah. We're just agree to disagree I guess. Nice conversation though. This is an interesting topic I wanted a thread on.

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 10:08 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    Ok yes then this is just where we have a disagreement as to the best and most accurate way of describing what Epicurus is doing.

    It's the same problem I have with this sentence from Brittanica:

    psychological hedonism, in philosophical psychology, the…

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 9:35 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    Mostly, though I would rephrase it, a main problem I see with a lack of psychological hedonism is that without it, you get groundless ideas that you can "rise above pleasure", as if pleasure, because it's natural and for animals means it's something…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 9:32 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    I see this and I can see where it supports where you are coming from wbernys. What I am not convinced of is that talking in terms of "psychology" is helpful to a philosophical discussion, as I see much potential damage in it for the reasons we are…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 9:15 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    OK here in this sentence, it is the "this" I am questioning (I added the underline).

    I would say that Epicurus would hold that "pleasure" is nature's guide and that happiness is a life of pleasure and that is what we should pursue, and that we see that…

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 9:03 AM

    Replied to the thread Welcome Keith!.
    Post
    Hi Keith Happy to have you. That was also the main reason i joined as well. We also have a few youtube videos as well. If you're getting into digging deeper may i recommend Torquatus speech as a seminal work on ethics.

    …

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 8:58 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    I always like this passage from Frances Wright as a good example of how seeing humans having a shared goal can be an important thereuptic element.

    "‘My sons! do you seek pleasure? I seek her also. Let us make the search together. You have tried wine, you…

  • wbernys May 11, 2026 at 8:54 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    Great question, let me say a few things then!

    First off, Psychological Hedonism is not exactly a huge issue to me, i certainly don't think it needs to be on any pamphlets as a major point or something. However, i think it may be helpful for two…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 8:35 AM

    Replied to the thread Welcome Keith!.
    Post
    Keith tells us:

    I am 77 years old and have had a lifelong interest in Philosophy. This has influenced both my beliefs and how I conduct my life.


    Initially this resulted in the dismissal of many social and religious conventions but then turned me to…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 8:35 AM

    Posted the thread Welcome Keith!.
    Thread
    Welcome Keith

    There is one last step to complete your registration:

    All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

    You must post your response within 24 hours, or…

  • Kalosyni May 11, 2026 at 8:31 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    PD25. "If on each occasion, instead of referring your actions to the end of nature, you turn to some other, nearer, standard, when you are making a choice or an avoidance, your actions will not be consistent with your principles."

    Here is my…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 8:04 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    But maybe it would help me understand where you are coming from wbernys if I understood:

    What do you think it gains someone to make the point "Epicurus was a psychological hedonist" ?

    That's the point I really don't understand. I feel like someone is…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 7:54 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    This is exactly what I think is *not* the case in terms of end result. Now I do agree that the feelings of pleasure and pain are largely "hard-wired" as we are born finding some things painful and other things pleasurable. Perhaps some modifications…

  • Don May 11, 2026 at 7:12 AM

    Replied to the thread PD 25 meaning? by Woolf (2004).
    Post
    […]

    I would argue that everyone pursues what they believe will bring them pleasure, will provide happiness. It's just that sometimes - often - we fool ourselves into pursuing those things that will not in reality bring pleasure in the long run.

    […]

    In…

  • Cassius May 11, 2026 at 4:06 AM

    Replied to the thread Happy Birthday General Thread.
    Post
    Happy Birthday to Noddy! Learn more about Noddy and say happy birthday on Noddy's timeline: Noddy

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