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Cassius
PostMay 22, 2026 at 3:56 PM Transcript of this episode - not perfectly edited - but usable:
https://epicurustoday.com/00-lucretiusto…st/episode_334/ -
Todd
May 22, 2026 at 1:06 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
No need to apologize.
I didn't like using "devalued" either, but nothing else came immediately to mind, so I went with it and added a qualifier. -
Cassius
PostMay 22, 2026 at 12:45 PM Episode 334 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Further Epicurean Analysis Of The Problems With Stoic Kataleptic Impressions."
[media]https://www.spreaker.com/episode/72117502/media -
Don
May 22, 2026 at 12:27 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post
"Culper, no culping."
(If you know, you know
) -
Cassius
May 22, 2026 at 11:54 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostNo culping necessary - we just want to be clear to prevent lurkers from getting the wrong impression! -
Don
May 22, 2026 at 11:28 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
Mea culpa
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Todd
May 22, 2026 at 9:22 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..Post[…]
I agree.
There is also this this quote from Torquatus:
[…]
I think the point you are making would follow directly from this premise. -
Todd
May 22, 2026 at 9:16 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
This is all I meant. The emphasis was intended to be on "relative". -
Cassius
May 22, 2026 at 8:11 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..PostYes i agree with Don excellent and thorough point wbernys!
The only initial comment i had was on this:
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This may not apply exactly, but It's my undertanding that Epicurus was criticized by Stoics and maybe others on the grounds that he did not say that… -
Cassius
May 22, 2026 at 7:42 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
I know that's the word Todd used but I agree with your direction Don, and am reading Todd that way too, that he doesn't really mean "devalue" except in relative terms. Where the letter to Menoeceus speaks precisely I would accept it as authoritative… -
wbernys
May 22, 2026 at 5:05 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..Post[…]
Oh I see! Okay good, yeah you and I are in agreement. Maybe I'll add something into the original post on this. -
Don
May 22, 2026 at 4:59 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..Post[…]
Oh, I'm agreeing with your premise! My only amplification is that we need a body to even be able to experience the world through the senses. There are no sensations without the ear, eye, tongue, skin, nose, and mind/soul/psykhē working in concert. -
wbernys
May 22, 2026 at 4:46 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..Post[…]
I think this quote interprets Torquatus as saying that the mind is apart of the body, and without it the mind cannot exist, and therefore is still physical. If it is that interpretation, i disagree. Feel free to correct me. Obviously the internet… -
Don
May 22, 2026 at 4:31 AM Replied to the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..PostNicely done.
The only summary statement I'd offer is that all pleasure had/has to be bodily in the broadest sense since we exist as mind and body as a whole and we experience everything within our a physical existence. There is no mental without a… -
Don
May 22, 2026 at 4:21 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
Okay, read the paper, and, alright, it's fine. But I didn't see it as overly revelatory. Epicurus posits a dyad to explain physics: bodies and space; he posits a dyad to explain the foundation of ethics: pleasure and pain. That seems to be the crux of… -
wbernys
May 21, 2026 at 11:19 PM Posted the thread Defense of all mental pleasure and pain being based in the body..ThreadHello all, I have long been curious about this apparently orthodox claim from Torquatus that all pleasures and pains are ultimately based in the body:
[…]
I imagine the orthodox Epicureans had sophisticated ways of defending this thesis. Philodemus in… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 9:46 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostThanks again Todd and others for all comments! -
Don
May 21, 2026 at 9:41 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
If that's the case, as much as I respect Sedley, we're going to have some problems, pardner.
Okay, I need to hunker down and ready this... -
Todd
May 21, 2026 at 6:18 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostMy thoughts on the Sedley paper
I think it makes a lot of sense. The parallels are certainly suggestive.
In my opinion, Sedley's framework is most useful for filling in gaps in our understanding of Epicurus' ethics. For one thing, I think it gives… -
Todd
May 21, 2026 at 4:14 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
Sedley says something similar to justify relying on On Ends over the Letter to Menoeceus. It's an elegantly written letter, not a systematic exposition of ethics. -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 3:44 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
I agree and think you are exactly right. This is a huge point and requires that we emphasize it. I don't think that Epicurus would used wording that implied this possibility if he were not writing (to Menoeceus) to someone he expected to know better… -
Todd
May 21, 2026 at 3:22 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.Post[…]
Agree, but it is suggesting something else that I see as problematic.
Being "without pain" (completely, entirely) is the maximum limit of pleasure. It is not a state that the average person frequently, or maybe ever, enjoys. I think it is a mistake to… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 3:10 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostAlso Todd I agree with your comments on the graphic and will use this one going forward
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Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 3:02 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostThis is parallel to the same problem in discussing discrete experiences. Saying that you are experiencing "pleasure" tells you absolutely nothing about what you are doing other than that you find it agreeable. Epicurus certainly understood that. Real… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 2:54 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostI also think in relating the issue of discrete sensations of pleasure to the issue of "pleasure in total" we will need to take note of something specific: I don't think that Cicero would leave himself open to the charge that he was intentionally… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 2:27 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostThank you for the comments Todd. I'll keep the separation of issues in mind as we proceed, but for better or worse I think the issues are tied tightly together in the texts - especially Torquatus but probably all of them - so I expect they need to be… -
Todd
May 21, 2026 at 1:54 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostThe Graphic
I actually like the graphic better than the article.
Maybe replace alive/dead with life/death - it offends my sense of grammar to have 2 pairs of nouns and then a pair of adjectives.
The Article
I see that you've tried to address my feedback in… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 12:26 PM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostI fully expect that this graphic is going to change many times as I continue to revise the article, but here is a first draft of something to put at the head of the article when in begins to approach Substack-stage. As with the article, all comments and… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 11:22 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostOk all of the comments so far have been helpful and thanks to all who made them. This is not an easy or simple article, and it really helps if someone has first read the Sedley article. However to be useful that can't be mandatory - the article has to… -
Cassius
May 21, 2026 at 8:44 AM Replied to the thread Iliustrations and Analogies For Explaining the "Two And Only Two Feelings" Argument.PostLast comment for now - the application of the atoms/void binary to pleasure/pain is what David Sedley discusses in his "Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics"
"The Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics" - Article By David Sedley
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