Posts by DaveT

And if I can add, paraphrasing Brian Greene; I come from the stuff of stars and to that state I shall return, and I'm happy with that.

Allow me a respectful comment on this thread. I think it is not helpful to compare and contrast the physical world hypotheses of the various ancient thinkers with our complex modern science of physics. Sometimes, an ancient thinker, by a fortunate coincidence, deduced and sensed a scientific principle later proven true by modern science. The fact that they hit on something that has now been proven to be true is a fortunate coincidence, does not diminish the power of their thinking, nor does it confirm who was correct or incorrect in their deductive powers about the physical world. In my view, Epicurus is worthy of consideration not as a soothsayer, but as a logician who bucked the tide of ancient metaphysics and religion, and developed a doctrine that many found to be a fulfilling lifestyle. As Inwood and Gerson write in The Epicurus Reader, The Four Point Cure (via Philodemus’ reporting) is: Don’t fear God, Don’t worry about death; What is good is easy to get, and What is terrible is easy to endure.

Do our learned friends here take issue with the following discussion by DeWitt? Please be specific and explain why the below is inapposite to this thread.

I ask because the posts discussed earlier are overwhelming me. The following comments and quotations in DeWitt seem to respond to the original query in this thread.

“EVIDENCES FROM SPECIFIC CONTEXT
In the extant texts of Epicurus the term prolepsis occurs four times
in a specific context. The first has reference to the divine nature and the
second and third to justice; the fourth applies to the concept of time.” P.146 DeWitt

“The discussion of the divine nature is found in the letter to the
youthful Menoeceus.44
It is there declared "that the pronouncements
of the multitude concerning the gods are not anticipations (prolepseis)
but false assumptions."” p.146

“The second and third examples of the term prolepsis are found in
Authorized Doctrines 37 and 38; the topic is justice. Just as in the case
of the divine nature, the first requisite is to discern the essential attribute
or attributes. It is Nature that furnishes the norm and implants in men
the embryonic notion or prolepsis of justice in advance of all experience.
Hence it is called "the justice of Nature," as in Doctrine 31: "The justice
of Nature is a covenant of advantage to the end that men shall not injure
one another nor be injured." Setting aside the idea of the covenant,
which is a separate topic,...” p.147

Rolf I hope I'm not abusing a topic, but I committed myself to reading DeWitt. DeWitt is hard reading for me, because he is constantly on both the offense and the defense.

Anyway, FYI if you choose to read more, in his chapter: VIII SENSATIONS, ANTICIPATIONS, AND FEELINGS, he gets into a discussion of Prolepsis at p. 143 under the topic of Anticipations of Epicurus' thought.

Long ago, my college speech prof put it simply, "Take your audience into account."

Quote from Rolf

Actually, could somebody take a crack at explaining fundamentally what prolepsis is? Is it innate knowledge that we’re born it? I’m more confused than I thought!

Rolf I’ve been doing (undoubtedly) superficial research on the internet to get this topic more firmly in my mind. How does this approach sound to make Prolepsis more concrete (ish) by comparing the major schools of the ancient era?
Prolepsis within Epicurus’ thought is the acquisition of knowledge, the process that comes from experience through the senses, and truth can be determined from repeated experience and thinking about what we know.

Prolepsis within Plato’s (stoic)thought is the acquisition of knowledge from innate sources, divine eternal universal truths.

Prolepsis within Skeptic (Phyrro) thought is that you can’t trust either of the above for definitive acquisition of knowledge since you can’t prove either is true.

I've been searching for a way to clarify for myself when or how Epicurus viewed the concept of prolepsis, I went to the Internet and Google's free AI, Gemini. It gave citations to back up its response, which I can paste into this discussion if anyone would like to see them.

Can our better educated friends here, give a deeper analysis of the response I got to my query; "prolepsis as discussed by Epicurus"? The answer it gave is in bold.

In Epicurean philosophy, **prolepsis** (plural: *prolepseis*) is a fundamental concept in their theory of knowledge, serving as one of the three criteria of truth, alongside sensations (*aisthêsis*) and feelings (*pathê*).

Here's a breakdown of prolepsis as Epicurus understood it:

* **Meaning:** Prolepsis translates to "preconception," "anticipation," or "pre-notion." It refers to a basic, general concept or idea that has been formed in our minds through repeated sensory experiences.

* **Formation through Experience:** Epicurus was an empiricist, meaning he believed that all knowledge ultimately derives from the senses. Prolepseis are formed when repeated sensory inputs of a certain kind leave a lasting impression or "trace" in the mind. For example, by repeatedly encountering dogs, we form a prolepsis of "dog" – a general idea of what a dog is.

* **A Criterion of Truth:** Prolepseis are considered self-evident and true. They act as a foundational, clear understanding against which we can evaluate new perceptions and opinions. When we encounter something new, we can refer back to our prolepsis to help us recognize and categorize it. If a new perception aligns with a relevant prolepsis, it is more likely to be true.

* **Precondition for Thought and Language:** Prolepseis are essential for rational thought and language. Without these pre-existing general notions, we wouldn't be able to name things, understand concepts, or engage in meaningful discourse. For instance, to understand the word "man," we must already have a prolepsis of what a man is.

* **Solution to Plato's Meno Paradox:** Epicurus' concept of prolepsis offered a solution to Plato's paradox in the *Meno*, which questioned how one could learn something new if they didn't already have some prior knowledge of it. Prolepseis provide this "pre-knowledge" or "preliminary concept" that allows us to recognize and learn.

* **Not Innate in the Platonic Sense:** While sometimes referred to as "innate," Epicurean prolepseis are not innate in the Platonic sense of being divinely implanted or pre-existing before experience. They are formed through a physiological, empirical process of repeated sensory input.

* **Role in Understanding Abstract Concepts (like the Gods):** Even for abstract concepts like "gods," Epicureans believed we form prolepseis. Our prolepsis of the gods, derived from common human experience and the appearance of living, blessed beings, leads to the Epicurean understanding of gods as tranquil, immortal, and not interfering in human affairs.

In essence, Epicurean prolepsis highlights the importance of direct sensory experience in shaping our fundamental understanding of the world, providing the building blocks for all subsequent knowledge and thought.

I'm continuing to try to understand the significance of this discussion within Epicurean prolepsis. Wikipedia search link below says: "Mammalian instinct refers to innate, genetically programmed behaviors essential for survival and reproduction, exhibited by mammals without prior learning, and often triggered by specific environmental cues or internal signals."

It is a biological event formed by natural selection only. No thinking is involved.

Google Search

Have I missed something? I tend to think that the prolepsis discussed by Epicurus was based on a limitation of his access to modern science 2,300 years ago. I think it is becoming clearer that a conception that you can know something before you apprehend it, or use your senses to learn it, is not how we know things.

Cassius I'm not clear how to work the copy paste of a quote but I'd like to chime in on your comment: "The pleasures Don lists which can be achieved by "getting out of the way" of them is a valid approach if you are able to maintain those and have confidence in their continuance and your satisfaction with them, but there are also other pleasures that you will never experience if you do not pursue them vigorously."

Yes, I agree with your overall comments, and those other pleasures might be the natural but not necessary pleasures.

I think about the possible foundations of Epicurus' teachings, and then how they might be adopted more widely. I guess he studied the beliefs of other philosophers, and looked around to see how people generally behaved on a daily basis. He must have seen how they tried to live well and avoid the anxiety of daily life. From what I've learned here in Epicurean Friends, his Garden included average people as well as intellectuals.

As I understand it, modern science is disclosing how our brains work, and it's not just a matter of paying attention to the teacher. Some among us can conceptualize to a higher degree, and intellectually discipline ourselves because of their particular brain structure. They are the lucky ones and not the average person. They have that capacity while the majority of people don't have the same ability to focus on the pursuit of higher pleasures. Making a living, raising a family, trying to be comfortable after a busy week takes up the majority of time for most of us, whether highly gifted or not.

So, I tend to appreciate the way Don addressed the more effortless process to pursue a happier life. I don't know how that way of life can be widely adopted unless monotheistic thought is abandoned widely. Thoughts?

I'm enjoying this conversation. As I read and look to apply the lesson to myself, I'm reminded of Thomas Jefferson's language in the American Declaration of Independence that we are entitled to the "Pursuit of Happiness". It's not a static state. To me, the message of Epicurus is to think about what we do as we pursue a contented daily life. Constant awareness is not possible, I think. But doesn't Epicurus teach that we are to be mindful of our short and long term choices? Especially when hard times hit? My dad used to chastise me as a kid when I made the wrong choices, "Just use your head!"

I've followed this discussion, but I don't understand why discussions of human behavior in extremis (at the point of death) are relevant to the average person. It sounds like argument for argument's sake. I don't intend to be argumentative, but why should we care how a person's prior state of happiness affects them moments before death? Is that supposed to prove anything about the value of living well?

Quote from Kalosyni

I just found this result on Google:

Plus I found this interesting podcast with transcript:

"Speaking of Psychology: The psychology of superstition, with Stuart Vyse, PhD"

https://www.apa.org/news/podcasts/…gy/superstition

Thanks. That was a fun read.

Quote from Bryan

Quote from DaveT

four cardinal principals

Quote from Don

Tetrapharmakos

Yes, here is Tsouna on that section:

"The expression τὰ τέτταρα refers to the Fourfold Remedy. We suggest that it should be distinguished from τὰ κυριώτατα (1. 8). τὰ τέτταρα are precisely four principles originally expressed by Epicurus and later constituting the Fourfold Remedy. On the other hand, the term κυριώτατα in its technical sense is intended to cover all the fundamental principles pertaining to a certain subject and enabling the Epicurean student to confront particular problems and to solve them on his own."

Thank you. That is helpful.

Bryan Thanks for sharing. However, I'm not clear about his reference to the four cardinal principals and what they specifically are. "it is also obvious that, aside from those misadventures, they are totally worthless people. This is said because of what has been stated about the four cardinal principles,..."

After Sunday’s Zoom on the topic, I listened to Episode 282 again. I wonder if Cicero’s elevation of infamy over pain as an evil might, from an Epicurean point of view, be an affirmation of pain being the ultimate object to be avoided.

It looks like, though we can’t know what was truly on his mind, that Cicero’s point of reference was his own internal “pain” or mental anxiety from doing an infamous act. Perhaps he could be forgiven for failing to recognize that by avoiding infamy, he was actually avoiding mental or physical pain resulting from an infamous action. Whether he was looking at his own present perception of how he might react to an infamy, or reflecting upon an act in the past that brought him infamy, it was still avoiding the “pain” of anxiety.

Robert, your question makes me wonder how I might incorporate some aspect of Epicurus' general guidance into my daily life.

I interpret what I have learned so far from Epicurus is that he essentially says something like; here's my idea of how people live life to the fullest; pursue happiness and avoid unhappiness. Do this by asking if some activity gives you pleasure (or the promise of pleasure) or does it reduce mental or physical pain (or promise to do so)

Fortunately he didn't lay out rituals, unless it is an admonition to think about the consequences of your natural desires and actions either beforehand or afterwards.

So, looking at one of the Vatican sayings: VS71. Question each of your desires: “What will happen to me if that which this desire seeks is achieved, and what if it is not?” simply requires I create a daily/weekly/monthly practice to ask myself that question. Whether that becomes my personal "ritual" to live a happy Epicurean life remains my task.

• Organizing is hard work, so thanks for thinking about this topic. Although I am reluctant to do so, may I suggest a couple of my thoughts on this type of zoom, considering that you may have discussed these ideas before I joined?
  • I'm thinking that probably most new members are readers, which is a rather solitary learning experience, and since there is such a rich collection of written materials here on the site, I'm wondering if a survey might be a way to ask, what further topics new members might want to discuss in a give and take zoom.
  • Then perhaps creating a syllabus for a set number of zooms, perhaps less than half a dozen, might help you get feedback.
  • And as far as timing: staggering possible dates among two or three start times along the way to get a grip on how many members can make one or more times might be helpful.
  • Lastly, Is there a way to record the zoom, and make it available for a set time so anyone missing it, can comment and perhaps revisit the discussion at the following zoom?

Cassius Thanks. I have just figured out my personal computer settings that were blocking me from signing in and replying to conversations and notifications. Yes, I did read the novel by Frances Wright. Ironically, the style is "modern" and colloquial when compared to the translations from the ancient Greek materials. I kept in mind to treat is as fictionalized history and enjoyed reading it.

I will attend. Will you send brief details how to join in? Thank you.