Posts by Eric

Hey,

I have read most of the main texts to get a better view of Epicureanism, and have also browsed the forums for various discussions that contain topics which interest me. I feel like after reading these I don't really have anything new to contribute, and the various forum members have said what I might have said much better than I could have.

So I feel I would like to move on, at least for now.

Thank you so much for providing this massive resource! It definitely challenged my understanding based on the more popular modern interpretation of Epicureanism. It was nice to meet many of you via the Zoom meetings.

Best wishes,

Eric

I am able and willing to attend : )

My thoughts on living well

Continuing from my "My thoughts on the Nature of the Universe" post, the most honest purpose of action for living beings is to seek and enjoy pleasure and avoid pain. One may think that they have some other purpose but even that thinking is motivated by pleasure and pain. Everyone that has a reward system, is honestly a hedonist but may simply extend their hedonic calculus to life after death which is not grounded in reality.

Pleasure and avoiding pain are the only thing intrinsically valuable to humans. Other values are always based on these.

One cannot reject pleasure/pain as the guide to and goal of life without using pleasure/pain to make that decision. A person who "renounces" pleasure isn't really getting rid of pleasure. They are simply choosing (often unwisely) a different pleasure and/or trying to avoid some pain.

What is pleasure? What is pain?

Pleasure is any experience that feels like you would be okay with being in this experience longer for the experience/feeling itself.
Pain is any experience that feels like you would not be okay with being in this experience longer for the experience/feeling itself.
One may be experiencing pleasure and pain signals simultaneously but if the overall experience is acceptable to be in for itself, one is feeling pleasure.

The limit of pleasure

The limit of pleasure is reached when all pain is removed. After that, pleasure cannot be increased but the experience varied. People who are not in pain do not need to increase the intensity of their pleasure signals as they are utterly content. People in pain may choose to increase the intensity of their pleasure signals in an effort to escape from their pain.

Managing pain

Acute pain does not last for very long and if pain is mild/moderate, it is tolerable. Ideally, if I cannot fix the source of the pain, I try to just wait it out instead of trying to hide it by foolish things that will cost me pleasure or cause me pain in the future.

Necessary needs vs Unnecessary desires

Necessary needs are those that which if not fulfilled, by the lack of themselves alone without externally acquired stress from added opinion/social pressure/addictions/triggers, will eventually cause death through loss of bodily functions. These lead to permanent pain at some point until satisfied. These include food, water, sleep, shelter, physical social presence (I would argue this is not an externally learned pressure as the detection is lack of social presence that intrinsically causes the body to stress itself to motivate returning to the safety of social groups) and movement (excersise). Necessary desires are desires that lead to the fulfillment of these needs.

Unnecessary desires are desires originating from beliefs, addictions, and the triggering of some innate reactive mechanisms (such as from the sexual or sociomoral brain systems). Such desires can be left unfulfilled without them leading to death, and any pain from the unfulfillment of the desire is temporary. External pressures may make feeding these desires practically necessary for survival or for coping with pain but without these circumstances, these desires are not necessary to engage in, and more (especially continuous) pleasure can be acquired and pain avoided by weakening these desires by not engaging in them or by avoiding their triggers. Some examples of unnecessary desires are the desire for involvement in politics, reading the news, engagement in sexual/romantic relations, and use of drugs.

Note: I am not saying taking pleasure from unnecessary desires is bad and advocating for total asceticism. Unnecessary desires are practically essential for building and maintaining friendships and for coping with life stresses and for keeping the mind sharp and body healthy and strong. The mind and body deteriorates if it is not used. What I am saying, is that asceticism can be used to gain more pleasure and lessen pain if done wisely and sparingly. Personally I need more of this myself to function in this world but am aware that some people have more capacity to live well without much of it.

Friendship

Friendship can provide the fulfillment of the necessary need for physical social presence but can also provide security against external or internal threats be they threats to wisdom, threats to financial security, or threats of physical harm. The confidence of receiving help if times get tough wards against fear (pain) even if we will never actually need help (which is desirable for the sake of our friends and for ourselves).

Also, friendship allows us to experience the joy of helping people we like. I like my boss and colleagues, and I like my family and friends. It brings me joy to help them and I may go through great efforts to help them and feel very satisfied and happy when I do so. This is a worthwhile desire to keep alive and engage in in moderation taking into account one's personal circumstances and resources.
I personally choose to live my life in such a way that I keep the reason for having friends as "I want friends because talking to them and helping them makes me feel joyful and secure" in my awareness instead of "I want friends because they will give me something or solve my problems". The former is easier for me when I am more sensitive to joy and being sensitive to joy is achieved by reducing pain and by reducing over-stimulation via avoiding unnecessary desires.

Determinism (not very epicurean stance maybe)

As I wrote in my previous post, I believe in causal determinism.
Determinism is a double-edged sword: On one hand, I shouldn't be punished by my actions after death as my actions and thoughts are pre-determined (another potent cure for fear of death) and on the other hand, I logically should not be proud of my accomplishments as I merely had a better starting point and environment than others which I didn't choose. Thus I consider pride (sense of superiority over others) to be a kind of false opinion and it is easier for me to ignore and let go than vainly defend it. Furthermore, people do not like arrogant people so this humility helps me in finding friendships that are not based on competition which is peaceful.

I am aware that in some ways it does not feel good to not have true agency. Thus I choose to go a little bit with the illusion of agency so that I may feel like I have control over my actions and be happier that way. I am aware that I am in a way lying to myself just to be happier. "There is no necessity to live under the control of necessity" speaks to me in this way.

Virtues

Virtues are not ends in of themselves. They are simply tools for gaining pleasure and avoiding pain. Following some virtues provide external goods and others internal goods. Some virtues are based on biology, others are based on social phenomena in the culture we live in. Not all virtues need be cultivated, but they exist for a reason (remember: everyone is a hedonist) and should be investigated why and considered for adopting into one's life based on individual circumstances.

Some quick thoughts about some specific virtues

Honesty: Conducive to peace of mind. Reduced pain of anticipation of being caught in a lie and punished. Less internal cognitive dissonance to deal with.

Temperance: Too much of a good thing can lead to pain and if not pain, reduced ability to feel pleasure later.

Wisdom: Helps in learning actions that increase pleasure and minimze pain in life. Studying the nature of the universe and experiencing life leads to wisdom.

Justice: Do not harm and people will not harm you. This is simply an agreement. Breaking this rule will bring the fear of being caught which will inhibit pleasure via having to create and manage lies. Same with following the laws. There is no absolute justice

Courage:
Sometimes risks need to be taken to avoid a larger pain or to obtain continuous pleasure. To do this, fears need to be overcome.

Gods and spirituality

I don't believe gods are real but I can still sometimes experience gods or whatever by making myself sensitive to what is happening inside me via e.g. meditation, fasting and/or sensory deprivation. My brain makes errors and I can sometimes (rarely nowadays) feel a presence. I take an attitude that this presence is friendly and thus, it is friendly (much in the same way how I can skillfully influence my dreams by imagining the intent of the entity in the dream or the events). It is a nice experience and yet doesn't seem to have any harmful effects when I get out of the state compared to e.g. sex or videogames which leave me more numb than I was before indulging. In fact, I find myself refreshed. It is a sort of pretending play which I find highly pleasurable. I'd rather not be hostile to gods in attitude and don't pooh pooh all religious/spiritual practices, and instead try to learn the pleasure in them. Spiritual practice is valuable to the very least in regenerating one's ability to feel and be aware of pleasure and positive emotions (via e.g. upregulation of neurotransmitter receptors).

Security

Greatest security is acquired by staying away from the awareness of the multitude and from a quiet life surrounded by good friends.

I could write more but this seems a good enough start. Comments, criticisms and questions are welcome.

Thank you, Cassius for your answer to my question. I can see that this is an issue of reducing uncertainty and protecting one's confidence when faced with external ideas that may induce fear. At this moment, I am not bothered by some level of existential uncertainty, so this is not a problem for me and am not really interested in discussing physics for now. Perhaps I will be interested later. I appreciate and respect your thoroughness.

Thought I'd make this clarification on my beliefs: I also find the ever-changing opinions of science an issue and prefer to experiment and think for myself instead of believing everything scientists say. I do not consider myself a skeptic. I have my own opinions that very strongly convince me that I should not fear death, or fear that pursuing happiness/pleasure for its own sake is somehow punishable way to conduct my life. That is why I'm not very interested, not because modern scientific consensus appears to contradict Epicurus' physics.

Quote from TauPhi

Eric My thoughts are similar to yours on the majority of topics mentioned in your post so I don't think you will benefit much from a fork praising other fork for being a fork. However, I do want to say that I had a big smile on my face reading your latest post. Not because I kept nodding to myself in agreement but because your clarity of thoughts is a pleasure to experience. Loved it. Thanks for sharing.

Hey thanks! You're welcome. Glad you liked it.

Quote from Cassius

Likewise, energy and forces are best thought of as falling under "atoms" since as Epicurus meant the term it was simply indivisible particle, and we use "atom" to refer to a particular arrangement of particles "above" atoms.

By atoms I actually did mean the indivisible particles. I am aware that atoms (as in a Beryllium atom) are composed of smaller particles and so forth. It is good that you brought this up for clarity's sake. Sometimes I have the habit of assuming people understand what I mean.

However, as Martin already said, energy can be quantized (such as the energies of atomic orbitals) or continuous (such as the energy of a photon). I'm actually not familiar with quantum field theory but my understanding is that even though there are particles involved, the forces themselves are continuous. It's been some time since I studied these, so correct me if I'm wrong.

I am not sure why this indivisibility of matter/energy is important regarding the philosophy though. What are the philosophical implications if matter/energy is indivisible and what if it is not (other than wether Epicurus was right or not)?

It doesn't really matter to me if Epicurus was wrong in some aspects of his physics as his Ethics and epistemology send my experience into high energies. I was forced to make these puns. I couldn't avoid it.

Continuation of my outline:

My thoughts on the nature of the universe

NOTE: I am aware that this post does not go with Epicurus' ideas about the nature of the universe and gods. The continuing post on ethics will be much more in line with Epicurus' words.

I have only experienced a material universe through my senses and feelings, and there is nothing I have experienced which felt spiritual/supernatural that couldn’t be explained by materialism to my satisfaction. Therefore, I believe that it is best to make my life choices as if the universe is fully material.

As far as I can observe and reason, the universe consists of atoms, void, energy and forces.

Things that exist in reality, be they emergent properties of atoms or even the atoms themselves, only exist because they have properties that make them exist. If they don’t have such properties or lose them over time, they stop existing. I don’t know why atoms exist and am likely limited by my human intellect to understand “how things really work”. I can only get to a certain level of understanding of reality with a level of confidence that is not a hindrance for the good life, a life of pleasure/happiness and minimal plain, and am thus okay with not knowing everything.

Life exists due to its property of self-replication. Any properties hindering this self-replication are pressured to be removed by competition of properties that promote self-replication. I am a living being and thus I am influenced by this self-replication of properties that promote the self-replication and thus existence of life. I am wired to action that promotes the self-replication of life. The wired action statistically aims to promote the spread of the genes contained in me or assists the spread of the genes of my family/tribe/country/world (life).

A significant mechanism in the wiring of life is the experience of pleasure and pain. Pleasure and pain are life’s “GO” and “STOP” signals respectively. All lifeforms naturally seek pleasure and avoid pain. Thus, I (my body and soul) also naturally seek and value pleasure, and avoid pain. Because of this life’s restriction, there is no way around this. I may be fooled by others or my genes to think that something else transcends pleasure and pain in value (like virtue or preservation of life). Yet, the only reason I would naturally remain to think like so is if I gain pleasure from thinking that these are valuable to pursue over pleasure (and/or if I experience pain from the thought that these are not valuable in of themselves over pleasure). As I stated in my “My thoughts on knowledge” post, when there are spikes of neurotransmitter (including at least dopamine in a prominent role) activity (at least strongly associated with the feeling of pleasure) accompanying a thought that we have, our confidence that the thought is correct increases, and it will influence our actions to that direction. Our brains cannot make conscious decisions, memories, or beliefs without going through our reward system.

I believe in causal determinism. Epicurus’ “swerve” of atoms or the modern theory of quantum uncertainty do not convince me that there is something that is the “real me” guiding this body and soul through some other means than what is dented into my body by my environment since my consciousness emerged or by my genetic code. However, it is highly beneficial from the perspective of pleasure and pain to conduct one’s life as if determinism is false in some cases such as to avoid the pain and pleasure-inhibiting stopping power of fatalism. “Some things happen out of chance, some out of necessity (pre-determined) and others by our own volition” is useful and I will cover this and others in the ethics section.

Short note about gods and death: I don’t believe they are physically real as I’ve never seen/felt them other than under conditions where my brain is demonstrably highly prone to making errors (yet these states are highly pleasurable. More on this in the continuing post). If supernatural gods/creators exist, I doubt they have the same faculties as we do. Therefore, the idea that they would use the same criteria for reward/punishment as we do based on moral properties we evolved as social species seems unlikely to me. Therefore, I don’t fear the gods or aim to control any reward or punishment given after death or anticipate it. For me it is reasonable to expect that my sensory experience ends when I die as my body, including its reward system (which governs pleasure and pain) stops working.

Again, I am sure I could be more clear but I feel this is good enough for posting. Comments and questions are welcome!

What I have been having at the back of my mind is since, for me, making sex worth it takes so much resources and often in practise sacrifices from and distracts me from securing the fulfillment of more important desires, it might be better to be abstinent.

Or maybe I just need to try harder

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Eric

The drive is stronger than the actual pleasure. Seems that regarding sex, we are wired to seek and want it more than be satisfied by it.

This perhaps depends on one's attitude and practice with regard to observing sensory experience.

A comparison can be made to eating food. There is hunger, but if the food is eaten too quickly then that can result in less satisfaction. If the meal is carefully planned and savored, and eaten slowly with an attitude of observation of every sensation, then that can result in greater satisfaction.

Yes I agree a 100 %. Slowing down and being present during sex does in my experience increase the pleasure and satisfaction. However, this is not common practice most likely because of the unfortunate limitation that sustaining presence, being more sensitive and being able to slow down without massive amounts of control (which is not relaxing), for many, require effort and structuring one's life in such a way that one is mostly not overstimulated by life and/or stuck thinking all the time. Sometimes we are simply too busy because of our life situation/choices to sufficiently de-stimulate, and regain sensitivity and presence. Practice of course plays a part.

What I was talking about was the common experience of just doing what the lusts drive us to do and that is where sex is often disappointing or becomes disappointing over time (your mileage may vary on how fast). Tantra/Karezza are in my mind advanced practices and I personally am kind of on the fence on whether these practices are what I should do compared to just abstinence. I know from experience that I definitely need to de-stimulate (meditate/sensory deprive myself) a lot and avoid other worldly stimulation to be able to satisfactorily enjoy these. If I worked full time instead of part-time at my brainy job, I personally would have a very difficult time making this happen.

Still experimenting with these with my girlfriend. We both agree on the above and we do have satisfying experiences when I succeed in keeping myself present and not overstimulated.

Quote from Eoghan Gardiner

I don't know, as a teenager I was told sex is this amazing thing. Yes it's very pleasurable but it's never as good as the desire and sex drive make it out to be. In a lot of ways, it's very disappointing.

Yeah, I can relate to that. The drive is stronger than the actual pleasure. Seems that regarding sex, we are wired to seek and want it more than be satisfied by it.

Quote from Eoghan Gardiner

This is in no way a recommendation of continence. As Cassius said, a 18 year old is going to have a very different experience of sex and sex drive then a 30 year old (me) or 60+(Cassius) etc.

Makes sense. I still feel the same drive and enthusiasm as I did when I was 18 or younger, but I have ADHD (diagnosed as a child), so that surely explains why. Sometimes I wish age would tone it down a little, but I have my methods

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Eric

Warning: Sometimes the pleasure get's too high and things get a little psychotic. The Epicurean should be prepared and watch out for this and manage this properly to keep their peace of mind.

Yes I've always thought that the major reason for Epicurus' concern was the damaging things that might result from doing things without thinking about the results, much as with alcohol or other drugs.

I suspect that you may have misunderstood what I was saying, so I will clarify. I think I worded what I said poorly. I meant that the differing neurotransmitter/hormonal states (that produce pleasure and joy) received from abstaining from sex and lust, can get too high and cause psychotic symptoms (bliss, overconfidence, mania/hypomania) which often precede doing things without thinking about the results (and can muddle thinking in general).

Such examples can be seen in these significant books referenced in the celibate/anti-sex communities:

Bliss of the Celibate - By Julian Lee

The Coiled Serpent: A philosophy of Conservation and Transmutation of Reproductive Energy - By C.J Van Vliet

What I see in these books and their authors, is an emphasis of extreme bliss or joy (pleasure) and vigor but I can also see significant delusional and magical thinking. Particularly combined with significant amount of meditation and other spiritual practice (as a method of obtaining self-control), abstinence seems to produce this kind of long-term state of mind.

The latter book, Coiled Serpent, although in my opinion false and kind of repulsive to read, is interesting in the sense, that it contains quotes from philosophers from all cultures throughout time - including Greek and Roman philosophers (including Epicurus - however, no new quotes). Though physicians seemed to value sex for medicinal reasons as stated in the post by Pacatus, there were philosophers close to Epicurus' time who said it is harmful and may have influenced him. Such as

"Of sexual indulgence Pythagoras said that "it is always
harmful and not conducive to health."14 "And once when
he was asked when one might indulge in sex he replied,
'whenever you want to be weaker than yourself'."

and

[Section on Aristotle] "sexual intercourse involves
the destruction of our bodies, the shortening of life."

Though he came after Epicurus,

"Cicero, the eclectic, "culled from every accessible phi
losophy those elements which were regarded as most help
ful for the higher life."" He found that "nothing is more
hostile to this . . . than sensual pleasure."48 "Such plea
sure . . . extinguishes completely the light of the soul."

Also in DeWitt's book, he mentions that Augustine of Hippo (a Catholic) approved of Epicurus apart from his denial of god.

My purpose in my writing is to bring attention to the joy and bliss that abstinence can bring for some people, yet being mindful that this is but a consequence of neurochemical/hormonal changes - not some supernatural gift; and that measures should be taken practicing this to avoid delusions.

Quote from Cassius

- In that context I would also think that "age" is a big factor to consider. All sorts of changes take place with age.

I'm sure that's true. Could you elaborate what you mean?

Thank you Godfrey for your advice. Yes indeed, that is what I meant by "taking as priority.

I thought that I might write my outline in separate posts as I go though DeWitt's book. I already had the time to write some of my own thoughts on knowledge and then revised the logic and language a little after I read the relevant chapters of the book.

My thoughts on knowledge

The sensory organs send raw unprocessed (i.e. "true") sensory data to the brain when something in this world stimulates them. Using the sensory data with the innate sensory data processing mechanisms, the brain makes interpretations of the data and assigns quantifiable "importance" to it with it in memory based on spikes of neurotransmitter activity modulated by:

• the feelings acquired by comparison with previously acquired or imagined or innate (anticipated) interpretations (comparison result: cognitive consonance or dissonance)
• the feelings already present at the time of the sensation. (drugs, hunger, having a good time/boredom etc. can influence the "importance" of an interpretation)

This importance is what manifests (or simply is?) our confidence/faith/trust in the interpretation. When the "importance" is high enough, we are confident that the information is true and we may call it knowledge.

Confidence is pleasurable. Lack of it can be painful, particularly for important or profound issues under processing. Skepticism (the confidence in that nothing can really be known) erodes confidence in the trueness of one's senses, anticipations and feelings, and naturally - as lack of confidence is painful - will not be tolerated forever and we usually eventually find a way around this pain by trusting something. The wise person chooses to be confident in the honesty of his senses, anticipations and feelings; yet shall not be hasty in his interpretations; and shall revise his interpretations when evidence to the contrary presents itself. Perceptions and interpretations can be false on all stages of processing as can be demonstrated via experienceable examples such as optical illusions (initial processing) or delusions (later processing).

Sensations, anticipations and feelings should be taken as priority over reasoning as they are direct information from the environment (or the environment of your ancestors as is the case with anticipations) for you to use, and reason is only indirect information of the environment.

I feel like I could maybe say more or try to make myself more clear but I am content with posting the above.

Comments and criticisms are welcome : )

I would like to give my thoughts on the subject of the necessity of sex as this has been a topic of major interest, experimentation and research for the past 6 years for me.

I actually would provide an alternate viewpoint:

The removal of the desire for sex is very difficult (for many reasons) and there often exist withdrawal symptoms from quitting - thus making getting rid of the desire painful. These withdrawal pains need to be endured for a long time (your mileage may vary) until they go away. Yet, once the withdrawals are over, the desire for sex gets weaker and people report that they experience long-term benefits such as more enjoyment from other things, increased mental/physical fortitude and most importantly, their lives become more pleasurable (I've been there many times). I am talking about brain/body alterations here, not simply about the pleasure coming indirectly from having more time for other things though those are also significant (but a bit too obvious to mention).

Essentially, a great pain is endured for an even greater long-term pleasure.

Another reason I believe sex to be divisive is that sex (particularly the release) is also a potent physical pain killer and stress reliever. I personally experience the pain-killing effects for up to two weeks after release. Many people deal with bodily pain daily and having sex can be an effective way to deal with that. On the other hand, if you are aware of your pain, you can maybe figure out the underlying issues better.

However, if you can manage your pain without sex, I think abstinence is worth experimenting on.

Warning: Sometimes the pleasure get's too high and things get a little psychotic. The Epicurean should be prepared and watch out for this and manage this properly to keep their peace of mind.

I think I'll stop here for now. Hope this brings up some good discussion or is useful to someone

Hello and thank you for welcoming me!

I am Eric (not real name) from Finland. I do not have formal background in philosophy but I have always been the thinking type and interested in how the world works. I have a university education and job in the field of natural sciences.

I discovered Epicureanism around 2019 when I learned that I had an addiction, became sober, and started to really think about how I should live my life and why. Before that I had been repeatedly dissatisfied with the answers to philosophical questions and lost interested in what others had to say. Furthermore I didn't have the intellectual capacity or motivation to pursue philosophy because my addiction held those qualities down.

Since then Epicureanism has been the only philosophy that makes significant logical sense to me. Some things in Epicurean Metaphysics and Epistemology I find hard to be convinced of as absolute truths but for practical purposes I try to conduct my life as if they were true. Perhaps here I can find a better understanding of these, but it doesn't really matter to me if this does not happen. I am content with being a practical Epicurean and I am most interested in Epicurean ethics. Maybe I can learn and contribute at least in that field.

I had been meaning to join an epicurean community online since 2020, but I didn't for some reason find this site back then and the one I did find didn't feel right for me at the time and still doesn't. I have substituted my need for friendship by romantic relationships, non-candid non-Epicurean friendships and living in intentional communities I do not believe the values of. I didn't disclose what I really believe in out fear of persecution (except in my romantic relationships).

Currently I live with my non-epicurean girlfriend and do not feel lonely. However, I seem to keep returning to the idea that I want to find epicurean friends. Maybe by participating here I can finally feel like I am with the right people. So far based on the foundational documents of this site, I think I am in the right place.

Looking forward to our discussions!

-Eric