Posts by Patrikios

Quote from Cassius

I suspect we're not going to agree with everything that Gassendi has to say but this is VERY interesting. Thanks Robert!

Robert

Thanks for this paper from Gassendi. Even Karl Marx held contrary views on Gassendi as an ‘Epicurean’ 🤪

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The experts know that no preliminary studies that are even of the slightest use exist for the subject of this treatise. What Cicero and Plutarch have babbled has been babbled after them up to the present day. Gassendi, who freed Epicurus from the interdict which the Fathers of the Church and the whole Middle Ages, the period of realised unreason, had placed upon him, presents in his expositions [15] only one interesting element. He seeks to accommodate his Catholic conscience to his pagan knowledge and Epicurus to the Church, which certainly was wasted effort. It is as though one wanted to throw the habit of a Christian nun over the bright and flourishing body of the Greek Lais. It is rather that Gassendi learns philosophy from Epicurus than that he could teach us about Epicurus' philosophy.

Karl Marx, doctoral dissertation – The Difference Between the Democreatin and Epicurean Philosophy of Nature – Robert C. Tucker translation as rendered by Eikadistes here: https://twentiers.com/marx/

TauPhi , and Matteng , thank you for your comments and encouragement on the chapters.

The Oxford Handbook is a collection of papers by different authors, vs the DeWitt single author approach, to encompass the breadth of Epicurus history and Epicureanism philosophy. So, I am delving into separate chapters to gain insight into some key topics.

For example, Chapter 5. Theology goes into great length on explaining the nature of Epicurean gods (elaborating on KD01) and explaining the 'prolepsis of the gods'. I was particularly helped by this explanation in the section, "The Ethical Meaning of Epicurean Theology"

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The simulacra of the gods, then, bring benefits, and thus to participate in prayers and in religious ceremonies (cf. Diog. Oen. fr. 19 II 6–11 Smith) means to “interiorize” in an effective way the (pleasurable) divine simulacra and to put into practice the commitment to become like a god among men.

What this means to me is that when I do my deep meditation and contemplate on the blessedness and incorruptibility of the 'gods', I am better able to understand what the 'divine simulacra' are implanting in my mind. The text in this chapter makes clear that our knowledge of Epicurean gods comes through prolepsis—a criterion of truth formed by repeated perceptions of divine simulacra striking our minds. When I practice my repeated meditation, I can focus contemplating how Epicurean gods are beings who are genuinely incorruptible (aphtharsia) and blessed (makariotēs). The prolepsis contains the essential characteristics: gods as living beings free from perturbation, experiencing continuous atomic replenishment that prevents their dissolution. My goal isn't worship in the traditional sense, but assimilation of the feelings— how it feels to live "like a god among men".

After scanning the Epicurean Friends ‘Recommended Reading’ webpage, and the New Epicurean library; I find no recommendation for “The Oxford Handbook of Epicurus and Epicureanism”. Has anyone read it, and are the translations acceptable?

I’m reading the Kindle ‘sample’ with the first chapter, but at $47 for paperback or $31 for Kindle version, I’d like to be sure it is worth having for reference.

Thanks for any insight.

Quote from Don

You would advocate for using terms more in line with "Life Itself is the Greatest Good" and avoiding using "pleasure" until, maybe, much further down the road when it is encountered in the ancient texts.

Quote from Kalosyni

All living beings by nature move toward pleasure and away from pain. The word pleasure, understood as a broad category rather than as any one specific object of feeling, is the telos that arises out of nature.

Don , Kalosyni ,

If Divine Nature gave us "pleasure" as the guide (the Good) for human beings to operate normally (within our "design" specifications) in order to live optimally (as "designed"/"built"), then pain (in body, mind or spirit) is Divine Nature's way of reminding us that our being (body, mind, soul) is not operating normally (as "built" to operate). So, the "Divine Physician of the Soul" (Epicurus) wrote out a framework for optimal living to achieve the "Greatest Good" of a life of wellbeing, each day we are alive.

So, yes, I do think that Epicurus was trying to teach a level of understanding of how the human body operates according to basic principles found in nature for all living beings, with our feelings (pain/pleasure) as the guide.

Quote from Cassius

Ella Pensa:

First of all, best greetings!

I speak with Epicurean frankness and friendship, because friendship is ethics in action, and Epicurus placed it at the very heart of the pleasant and eudaemonic life.

Wow, Ella Pensa clearly demonstrates Epicurean ethics in action! This is an excellent way to publicly showcase Epicureanism.

Quote from MarkJW

This is yet another example of how powerfully therapeutic Epicureanism and the study of philosophical debate can be.

Welcome, MarkJW

You will likely find that statement to be a beautiful understatement!

There is so much to learn, especially as you learn from the multiple generations of Epicurean writers, much of those works saved or linked from this Epicurean Friends website. It is transformative!

Quote from Don

So, τὸ κατὰ ψυχὴν χαῖρον ἐπὶ τῇ ... μνήμῃ "the enjoying throughout (my) mind... of the memory"

So I don't think we can make a firm body (flesh)/mind dichotomy with ΧΑΡΑ/ΕΥΦΡΟΣΥΝΗ. There seem to be more nuances going on, at least in Epicurus' use of the terms.

Don  @Eikadistes ,

Could this use of KAPA be describing a whole-body-mind feeling of pleasure that occurs when a vivid mental recollection of a past significant joyous event, causes the mind to trigger the brain/body to release of the pleasure chemicals (endorphins)? Is this one of those nuances?

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Quote from DaveT

"Why must even a knowledgeable Epicurean always have to explain the pleasure-pain principle as limited by prudence as soon as that emotion-laden word Pleasure surfaces?

Robert wondered if “re-branding” our word choice would be useful. I think that is an important enough question for us to discuss collectively. Maybe we can discover a different way for both new and old followers to avoid the common ridicule that tends to shame not just the timid, but the courageous person who says, they follow Epicurus’ ethics about Pleasure."

DaveT Thanks for raising the question on 're-branding' when introducing Epicureanism to someone. Maybe before introducing the word 'pleasure' up front, the introduction of Epicureanism should highlight the benefits that accrue from following this framework for a life of wellbeing (eudaimonia).

I describe Epicureanism as the way of a life of wellbeing, which comes from wisdom, gained through prudent consideration of choices and avoidances. We acquire this wisdom through unceasing study of nature, through contemplation of the writings of the sage, Epikouros and his followers; through fellowships with like-minded friends; and by endeavoring to live practically, properly, peaceably and pleasantly. Our guide for pleasant living comes from Divine Nature, who teaches us to use our body's senses, feelings and apprehensions for right choices and avoidances. Only after describing the framework and benefits of Epicureanism, should we get into the details of describing how 'pleasure' is the absence of 'pain'. With an understanding of what the desired state of a pain-free body and tranquil mind that enables wellbeing, we can then describe how the absence of pain/disturbance (in body and mind) is achieved through both kinetic and static pleasures.

For example, @Eikadistes takes 3-1/2 pages of the introduction in his Hedonicon, before the word 'pleasure' is even mentioned, and only then by introducing: "The Patron of Pleasure prescribes a practice for maximizing the serenity (aponia) of the flesh and for magnifying the tranquility (ataraxia) of the mind.

Does this approach provide a more acceptable method for discussing Epicureanism, without getting into the issue of shameful pleasures?

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David Sedley in his paper "Epicurus' Theological Innatism" places significance on the singular construction. Sedley proposed each person creates their own "god" which is why he stressed the importance of the singular form.

Joshua Thanks to your suggestion, I went back to re-read Sedley's paper on Innatism and the forming of a personal 'god'. This has helped to change my understanding of the basics of KD01. Sedley points to Epicurus' Letter to Menoeceus where he advises readers to "consider god" and "attach to him" certain qualities. It appears to suggest we actively construct our own conception of a 'god' rather than discovering pre-existing beings. I now see how Sedley explains that we have an innate predisposition to form these divine images, but not because gods actually exist. Rather, we naturally tend to imagine beings that represent our own ideals of happiness and tranquility.

Is this a correct understanding of how to interpret how Epicurus referred to 'god(s)'?

Quote from Pacatus

Quote from Cassius

while staying within the forum rules!

I try, Cassius, I try!

The trilemma stated by Hume in the article is often credited originally to Epicurus.

Cassius

My main point in posting the article was to gain some background knowledge on what the author referenced “the problem of evil”. Does that phrase reference any historical writing?

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“the problem of evil,” an idea attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus.

“Where Is God in Gaza?”

The question of the role of ‘God’ in allowing the evil of war continues to play out in this NYT article “Where Is God in Gaza?”

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The war’s grotesque details, live-streamed around the world, are an example of “the problem of evil,” an idea attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus. It’s an issue that has vexed people throughout history as they tried to reconcile the existence of suffering with the belief in a benevolent God.

Where Is God in Gaza?

The war, which has killed tens of thousands, laid waste to the Gaza Strip and shredded Israel’s reputation abroad, could soon be over. We explore how people…

www.nytimes.com

The author doesn’t discuss what Epicurus meant by “the problem of evil”, or how she would contrast the Epicurean view on wars fought over different religious beliefs.

It would have made for a more interesting article if the author addressed the question from Diogenes.

Quote from Cassius

On account of what kind of gods, then, will human beings be righteous? For they are not righteous on account of the real ones or on account of Plato’s and Socrates’ Judges in Hades.

Happy Birthday, Cassius

May you feel the pleasure of knowing the joy you have brought to so many others with the Epicurean Friends website, and all your own writings. Thanks to you, I am able to discuss philosophy via Catius Cat with my grandchildren!

Quote from Cassius

My interpretation is that the Epicurean position is that "virtue" is a generic term that applies to the "strengths" or "excellences" or the particular activities of a thing that keep it alive and allow it to flourish.

Cassius

I appreciate that reference of the “virtue” of a thing is it’s excellence, it’s strengths, it’s will to survive. This reminded me of a song “Lust For Life” with the verse “a lust for life keeps us alive”.

It’s not a great song, but here is how someone on Reddit summed it up.

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Also, "a lust for life keeps us alive" alludes to a philosophical idea that we continue to live simply bc we want to, that sometimes we don't need anything more to keep going in this crazy world except a desire to live. We keep living out of habit bc the alternative, death and non-existence is a truly foreign idea for us. Idk, I like it.

Living simply is very Epicurean, and with pleasure as our guide that keeps us in touch with our natural desires, to live & to flourish.

Quote from kochiekoch

This is intriguing. The article states that consciousness arises from bodily sensations, not just from the brain. It's a very Epicurean idea, such that he states death is nothing to us as we will be without sensations and consciousness is extinguished.

kochiekoch

Here’s a direct link to the article.

Consciousness Starts in the Body, Not the Brain: New Neuroscience Study Changes Everything We Knew

Scientists may have just turned our understanding of consciousness on its head. A major new study suggests your thoughts and feelings might not come from where…

dailygalaxy.com

That is a very interesting article and research study into how our consciousness arises from interoception - our body's internal sensing system. I find that much of the research outcomes support several Epicurean principles. The research suggests that our lived experience emerges from the body's signals rather than being purely brain-generated. This appears to describe some aspects of Epicurean prolepsis (precognition).

Also, I find parallels in how this understanding of consciousness aligns with Christos #Yapijakis's interpretation of Epicurean biological determinism. For example, Yapijakis explains that Epicurus viewed consciousness and mental states as emerging from purely physical processes. In his 2018 paper "Ethical Teachings of Epicurus Based on Human Nature," he details how Epicureans understood that:
- Our sense perceptions are based on an atomic nature
- Mental processes arise from specific atomic arrangements in the body
- Consciousness emerges from interactions between physical components
- Psychological states have biological foundations
- Human behavior follows natural, deterministic patterns

I think this article may be another example of modern science providing the evidence for what Epicurus studied and rationally expected. Does this help to expand on your original post?

I have no comments on the AI aspects mentioned in the article.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Rolf

Would you say then Cassius that “the absence of pain being the limit of pleasure” is not something I have to hold in my everyday mind as something practical? It’s more just something for use in philosophical reasoning and debate

I think that having a mental image of the most desirable state is highly practical and even essential and is similar to projecting this as a "godlike life." For that reason I would say that it needs to be held in mind In the same way Epicurus tells Herodotus to keep an outline in mind and to be able to flip back and forth from high level to detail at a moments notice.

And I would also say that the expansive definition of pleasure to include appreciation of all nonpainful life, particularly mental appreciation of the benefits of a true philosophy, is also a daily or even hourly thing.

This isn't just for times of debate.

Rolf thanks for your series of questions to better understand the pleasure/pain concept, and how to apply it.

As you were asking for practical examples, here is how I have been trying to apply this concept on a daily/hourly basis, as Cassius suggested above.

We know that even if we have no physical pains or ongoing mental disturbances, every day life is going to present us with perturbations.
I try to start my day with the “mental appreciation” of the Epicurean framework.

As I review my schedule and any interactions I will have, I try to mentally preview those interactions, as an Epicurean wise man might conduct himself. That helps me set an open-minded view towards those upcoming meetings or planned calls.

Another example to apply these concepts is when I take my daily walk near downtown, with lots of construction these days. Instead of being upset about all the sidewalks along my normal walking routes being closed, I set a mental attitude of choosing the most pleasant street and shady sidewalk, while trying to avoid areas with construction workers. So, holding the Epicurean concept in your mind as you go about an active day can lead to a day with more pleasant than painful experiences.

Do examples as this help you, Rolf ?

Quote from Don

The course is not to be feared.
Failure is free of guilt.

Don

Thanks for the correction 👍

I’ll try to remember the difference and be more declarative when I’m on my 3rd stroke in a deep sand trap 😤 on a hot, humid day 🤬 on the golf course.

Quote from Cassius

To me, when you drill down and realize that for an individual some pleasures are much "greater" than others in terms of intensity, duration, and parts of the body affected, you see clearly that some specific pleasures are much more desirable to you than others. All pleasure is pleasure because it is desirable, but all pleasures are not the same in every respect to all people at all times, or even to the same person at different times, and therefore as to specific characteristics, some pleasurable experiences can be more pleasurable (more intense, longer lasting, or affecting more parts of the body) than others.

Cassius

I was reading some of the excerpts from #Philodemus, and came across this reference which supports the view that the scale of pleasure depends on the individual and circumstances.

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in "On Choices and Avoidances," Philodemus discusses how:

"Different circumstances and conditions of individuals affect their experience of pleasure" (Col. XII.7-14)

Quote from Cassius

Christos Yapijakis has forwarded to me the agenda for this weekends Panhellenic Epicurean Symposium. There look to be many very good presentations

Cassius ,

Is there any chance of doing some type of cooperative event in Feb 2026 with the Athens group, where we have some presentations in English? I’ve seen a few examples of you or another giving a presentation in English as part of this annual symposium.

If this was possible, how might we identify relevant topics to be discussed within the symposium?

As I am interested in applying Epicurean principles in all aspects of my life, I sometimes have philosophical dialogues with my various Personal.AI personas. After asking Chip (my golf coach AI persona) to review some #Epicurean papers, here was Chip’s suggestion of applying basic #tetrapharmakos principles to a golf game.

<AI>
“The #Tetrapharmakos (four-fold cure) can be adapted for golf:
1. Don't fear the course
2. Don't fear failure
3. Good shots are achievable
4. Bad shots are manageable”

😆

“Too many players get caught up in score and forget the simple pleasure of being outdoors, making good shots, and spending time with friends. This connects to the Epicurean view that friendship and positive social connections enhance our experience.”

</AI>

Quote from Kalosyni

So these two things motivate action:

discontent (physical pain or mental discontent/subtle fear)
curiousity (wanting to try out a physical sensation or learn something)

Any others?

Kalosyni , thanks for an interesting question!

Another source to motivate action is our perceived need to react to something received by our senses (e.g. sudden flash, loud noise, unpleasant odor, request from a friend, etc.).