Posts by Patrikios

Quote from Godfrey

- Might it be most constructive to be satisfied with multiple possible explanations of the gods? And perhaps useful to look at the subject for practical insights, through modern eyes?

Godfrey, thank you for this suggestion to look for practical insights.

As I understand Greece and surrounding Mediterranean countries in 4th century bce, many of the 'gods' were still being worshiped for their control over some facet of Nature (e.g. Zeus - lightening bolts; Posieden - seas), or they represented human emotions/actions (e.g. Eros - sexual desire; Morpheus - dreams & sleep). Which gods was Epicurus suggesting were worth considering as being blessed? Was Epicurus referring only to the gods that represented positive traits (e.g. Apollo - god of music, poetry, art, oracles, archery, plague, medicine, sun, light and knowledge), not gods of war & violence (e.g. Ares)?

Epicurus could be calling us to consider, for example, the blessedness of Apollo when getting in the mood to write a creative music or poem. It appears that the Epicurus was using the generally accepted practice to acknowledge the existence of gods, but focusing only on the gods who demonstrate an appearance of happiness and imperturbation.

Was Epicurus using people's positive views of the best possible unperturbed state of mind (as envisioned with peaceful gods) as a goal of our practice to prudently live pleasantly?

Quote from Cassius

Now that our book review is complete let me thank all who participated, and especially Emily Austin who joined in our final session. We'll plan a new program soon and we'll rotate back to "Living for Pleasure" in the future.

Cassius Is there a video or audio link of the June 4, 2023 discussion with Emily Austin? I have her book and I would be interested in the updated discussion. (I have listened to the 2 LT podcasts with Emily.)

Thanks for your in-depth knowledge 👍

Patrikios

Quote from Cassius

In addition, however, there are major philosophical issues that Epicurus was addressing that tend to get crowded out if one focuses only on "balance" or "tranquility" or any other single tool toward the ultimate goal. I suppose one might say that it is important to take a "balanced" approach even to balance, and to recognize that there are many other day to day decisions that must be made on which Epicurus had very many important things to say.

From my reading of Yapijakis and Chorousos, this writing didn’t just focus on ‘psychosomatic balance’, but broadly reinforces many of our core principles - the pursuit of inner peace, the importance of friendship, the value of rational thinking, and the focus on achievable, natural pleasures rather than vain desires. It provides a strong historical and philosophical foundation for our approach to stress management and the pursuit of happiness. Notice the importance of prudent, rational decision process. Here are some quotes from the article to highlight the ‘balanced’ approach.

“According to Epicurus, eudaimonia is a hedonistic steady state of being (καταστηματικὴ ἡδονὴ, static hedone) free of agitation and pain. The happy life could be achieved only by prudent people, who on the one hand do not have irrational fears of gods and death, while on the other hand recognize their irrational, unnatural and unnecessary desires and avoid them. People who want to live happily should exercise their practical wisdom to understand the nature of their emotions as criteria of truth, to allow the expression of the useful ones and to control that of the disruptive ones.”

”According to Epicurus, eustatheia is achieved by controlling stress and the quality of life by means of prudence and other virtues, goodwill and friendship.”

”Considering that philosophy is the cure for mental distress, Epicurus proposed specific philosophical “medicines” for achieving psychosomatic eustatheia and eudaimonia, which are timeless, as long as the biological nature of humans remains the same.”

Quote from Cassius

As I see it the number one hurdle to get across - with nothing else being close - is that of arguing the evidence supporting the view that Epicurus' "absence of pain" does not mean "absence of activity," but instead embraces *every* activity of human life that is not painful.

I can certainly see the value of seeking ataraxia, tranquility of mind. But I understand the greater good we are seeking is eudaimonia, happiness. What helped me see the ultimate value of an Epicurean practice is Christos Yapijakis writing on eustatheia, “stability”, what medical practitioners today call homeostasis, psychosomatic balance.

The writing is: “Epicurean Stability (eustatheia): A Philosophical Approach of Stress Management”, by Christos Yapijakis and George P. Chrousos, medical professionals teaching at National and Kapodistrian University of Athens, Greece.

So, eustatheia is the goal of complete harmony with mind, body & spirit. But it is the unperturbility, calmness resulting from an epicurean practice that enables us to demonstrate by example the benefits of this practice. I find myself asking: WWED - “what would Epicurus do” in this situation. This can also lead to what athletes like to achieve when they can perform in “the zone”.

One way to consider growing the Epicurean community would be to emphasize the “optimal living”, “be the best you can be”, aspects that results from a practice of achieving physical, mental & spiritual balance (homeostasis) in their lives.

Quote from Cassius

By they way do you have the "quote" function working now?

Quote from Pacatus

“As a practical matter it seems to me that Epicurus was right that it would be impossible for us to live happily if we did not organize our lives as if we are confident that we have some amount of free agency. … That has to be good enough and I judge it to be good enough - at least for me.”

– Cassius post #4 above.

Cassius Your commentary is quite timely, especially for those of us making decisions related to the vagaries of storms & hurricanes.

First, my wife & I are back home safely Thursday morning on the bay, after riding out Milton 6 miles inland on west coast of FL with strong winds & rain. Yet the stillness we experienced last night standing outside during the Eye of the Storm, brought a few moments of tranquility from the wind noise. The Eye also let us know to expect the stronger winds as the back wall of winds hit a few minutes later last night.

Second, we are fortunate to have benefits of science that enables us to organize our lives, track the storm better and make prudent decisions to deal with the necessity of shelter, food & water; while accepting nature’s vagaries of chance, especially with such a powerful storm (wind speeds & direction, rainfall amounts).

Thirdly, according to these principles of Epicurus, we can choose to re-organize our lives prudently to live happily & harmoniously with some new realities of nature, while not attributing the good or bad effects of such natural events to any gods.

Again I appreciate the relevancy of these Epicurean Friends dialogues. 🙏

Quote from TauPhi

Clotho (Κλωθώ) - The Sister of Choice, the Spinner. She weaves the thread of our lives. She employees us as actors in 'The Life' play where we make the choices which are ours despite the fact that they are limited by the chances and necessities of the stage and the theatre.

I like this idea of the “thread of life” as a metaphor to view our journey through life. Seeing the 3 sides of the Moirai, makes sense to me in better understanding our roles & responsibilities in Life. As I understand, Epicurus tells us to learn from Devine Nature how all 3 of these facets work to achieve a balanced, happy life. In other words, by recognizing that necessity and chance do occur in everyday life, we should also recognize that our free will is not prevented by them, but we can prudently evaluate the opportunities and obstacles from those two sisters. Then we can exercise our free will to choose the best path for our continued journey steps.

Thanks for an interesting topic, Pacatus.

"due to a cultural background or training (either religious or cultural) that eschews pleasurable pursuits as frivolous or inappropriate."

Here is an example of the religious culture defining appropriate pursuit of happiness. In some of my family's Christian evangelical circles, any pursuit of personal pleasure is only appropriate if you follow the JOY priority of how you spend your time to bring happiness to your life:

Jesus first

Others second

Yourself last.

That was a formula that resulted in more anxiety and dis-ease. Some in those groups would use that meme as a tool for judging any "inappropriate" pursuits; often couched in condescendingly sayings such as "we'll pray for you", while thinking [and your poor lost atheist soul]. This may be an example where their interpretations of 'scripture' led them to their own 'hedonophobia', which they attempted to spread to others in their circle.

Through our studies of Epicurus, I have come to understand the importance to instead follow the airplane rule: "put on your oxygen mask first, before you help someone else." Through our prudent evaluation of pleasures and the work/effort required to obtain them, we can be thoughtful and supportive of the needs of family and friends, while maintaining an Epicurean practice that enables us to operate from a core sense of happiness, as our basic necessities are met.

Quote from Kalosyni

… if there are any other introductory members (or established members who have never attended) interested please let us know and we can add you to the Zoom link list (link goes out the day before the meeting).

I would love to attend the zoom meeting on 7th.

Quote from Cassius

I am glad we reached this section before we do our special episode on the "real vs ideal" debate. This section contains some very interesting material on images, a subject that most seem to agree play into the question of prolepsis.

I’m looking forward to your upcoming podcast discussion of the Epicurean idea of "images flowing" and how this ties into human perception and knowledge. From my reading of Epicurus (although I can’t cite source), all objects continuously emit thin films of atoms called eidola or "images." These images flow through space and interact with our senses, particularly our eyes, to create perceptions. These images maintained the shape and properties of the objects they came from, allowing us to perceive the world accurately. I find this to be a reasonable explanation for perception, consistent with Epicurean atomic theory, and refined (not discredited) today’s scientific knowledge.

As I understand it, Prolepsis is closely tied to the theory of flowing images because these preconceptions are ultimately derived from sensory experiences caused by these images. It's a way of explaining how we form general concepts from particular experiences, bridging the gap between atomic theory and human cognition.

I look forward to the fascinating discussion on the podcast, with maybe some commentary on how this system of thought - from flowing images to sensory perception to prolepsis - forms a coherent materialist explanation for how we perceive and understand the world today, which was a cornerstone of Epicurean philosophy over 2000 years ago.

Quote from Joshua

There is an interesting remark by Stephen Greenblatt in The Swerve about libraries in antiquity, but I haven't been able to track down a source for the claim.

Quote

At the games in the Colosseum one day, the historian Tacitus had a conversation on literature with a perfect stranger who turned out to have read his works. Culture was no longer located in close-knit circles of friends and acquaintances; Tacitus was encountering his "public" in the form of someone who had bought his book at a stall in the Forum or read it in a library.

In any case, This article (PDF) gives an interesting look into how these texts might have been distributed in antiquity. Just in case Don needs a cheering-up!

Joshua , interesting question on how Epicurean texts got circulated in Ancient Greece & Italy. When I visited Greece earlier this month my tour included Olympia and Delphi, which was home to the “Pythian Games”. Each location held their games every 4 years off-set by 2 years. While the athletic games only lasted 3 or 4 days, the festival was 8 days or more.

These gatherings included opportunities for dialogue with people from around the Mediterranean. Next to the stadiums was the theater, where lectures given, along with plays and music. Many of the travelers to Olympia and Delphi paid some appropriate “alms” to the temple(s), on their way to the stadiums and theaters. Yet, many also then listened or had dialogue with teachers from Epicurean schools in Greece. While there wasn’t any direct archaeological evidence for the spreading of Epicurean discussions at these large festivals in Greece.

So, it is very likely that similar gatherings occurred around the Colosseum and Forum in Rome until around 4th century CE. My facts and memory may not be exact, but in Greece the crossroads of ideas frequently occurred around the festivals.

Here’s the Wikipedia text on Pythian Games.

“The Pythian Games (Greek: Τα Πύθια, translit. Ta Pythia) were one of the four Panhellenic Games of Ancient Greece. They were held in honour of Apollo at his sanctuary in Delphievery four years, two years after the Olympic Games, and between each Nemean and Isthmian Games. The Pythian Games were founded sometime in the 6th century BC. In legend they were started by Apollo after he killed Python and set up the Oracle at Delphi. They continued until the 4th century AD.”

Quote from Kalosyni

Vatican Saying 48:

"While you are on the road, try to make the later part better than the earlier part; and be equally happy when you reach the end."

Seems like an Epicurean would evaluate and then take action to make their life better (perhaps based on natural and necessary for happiness).

I appreciate the sentiments expressed by Kalosyni to keep a focus on nature. While I am still learning about #Epicurus teachings, I find his focus on Nature as the ruler on what is “real”. My understanding of Nature is that everything is in motion and creating (growing/aging still involves creation of new cells). So, I try to find “meaning” in my life by prioritizing on finding new solutions to issues that arise in different facets of our lives (home, work, community, personal self, etc.).

Hello, Friends of Epicurus.

Thanks to Cassius for the forum on-boarding assistance.

My interest in this forum is to continue learning more about the teachings of Epicurus. I am interested in understanding the Ethics and how to apply them daily. I enjoy the discussions on Lucretius Today podcast every week. I try to listen to them on the weekend, for my Sunday ‘sermon’, and contemplation.

The Physics of Epicurus I am finding is fascinatingly prescient as current Quantum Field Theory & Quantum Gravity theory are providing the scientific revealing from Nature.

I look forward to continuing my education through this forum and the wealth of resources here.

Patrick (Patrikios for my Greek friends)