Posts by sanantoniogarden

Welcome balin !

Quote from Kalosyni

"On the flip side, you could say that modern science has resulted in germ-warfare and nuclear weapons"

Fritz Haber is an interesting personification of this. He helped develop the Haber process, which is still feeding billions (absolutely good) but also contributed the creation of zyklon b (absolutely evil)

Quote from Robert

"scientific determinism differs from the theistic determinism of Stoicism or Calvinism"

Right, it's the implications of this scientific determinism that has my attention. I expect most of us generally accept that the epicurean gods are material and do not interfere, intervene, inhibit or punish. And most will accept that modern science has continued the Epicurean mission to stamp out superstition. Now that we've done away with with the "supernatural" (a phrase I've always had issues with) we can focus on dispelling the new fears.

It's in these new found fears and anxieties. Genetic predispositions to painful or deadly diseases can make some feel trapped by some biological destiny. Psychology or neuroscience can also make some feel trapped by brain chemistry or childhood experiences (even compound the anxiety of biological destiny). Climate change can be the source of much existential dread. The interesting question is how does the Epicurean respond to these new problems?

To the point of conciseness of the categorization of desires I simply use necessary, unnecessary and vain. I feel this is a nice brief way to remember: necessary desires are Natural, unnecessary desires are natural, and vain desires are just that, empty and unattainable.

Thinking about this today and how the purpose of Epicurean physics was to help remove irrational and unnecessary fears, and how or has our modern science has contributed to this end? For some I imagine understanding germ theory, pathology, maybe some basic genetics (and other disciplines) would remove the fear of some godly whims, but for others this knowledge might create new fears of some almost deterministic fate. Curious what the forum thinks

Welcome!

I like the simplicity of the moon symbol, however it's similarity to the crescent and star might be confusing for some and offensive to others.

I'm hesitant to say that Epicurus would hold that Desires are either wholly painful or wholly pleasurable. Desires have to exist in a sort of neutral Natural sense almost entirely biological. Most of the basic Natural and necessary desires are driven by biological instinct, to satisfy hunger and thirst, shelter from the elements and a community of friendship to shelter from the human predicament.

It seems that on a surface level saying that all Desires are painful might lead one to the ascetic side of Epicureanism. To my understanding there are only two states one can exist in, pleasure or pain, if all Desires are in fact painful, the removal of those Desires would increase one's pleasure more than actually satisfying those Desires. You never have that desire you never have that pain. Because as we all know satisfying a desire would lead to more desires (more pain) unless one educates themselves (where the calculus enters). If all Desires are pleasurable, would it at all make sense to have that desire delayed as long as possible, since desire is wholly pleasurable? Because satisfying a pleasurable desire would remove that pleasurable desire and briefly increase pain until a new pleasurable desire is found? (Playing devil's advocate with these questions)

I like the first Mondays idea and focusing on the Principal Doctrines, not just for new members and people new to the philosophy but having more experienced guides present to really sharpen and condense answers to the most basic questions that people have.

The doctrines should be supported I think by references to the letters as much as possible. This is so that people's first conversations are about Epicurus own words and leaving the secondary sources and commentaries for later study and conversation.

Don Maybe something like a physical therapy regimen necessary to walk again? Going to the dentist for some painful procedure to prevent future difficulties? These are extreme examples but do sometimes happen

To my mind, this doctrine addresses desires that do not arise from genuine need but from empty values ingrained by social conditioning. Desires to be rich and powerful, to be popular, to own the latest status symbols, things of that nature

PD 15 Speaks to this as well I feel

An attempt *used chatgpt

Something I take as a motto is David Hume's "Be a philosopher, but amidst all your philosophy, be still a man." Which once removed from its original context becomes a sort of succinct byway to VS 41

My Epicurean Outline

1. The universe is material. Nothing supernatural occurs in it.

- Matter consists of arrangements of particles and these particles move in space

- Gods do not exist as the many believe them to exist

Gods do not create, hate, love, punish, feel jealous, feel angry etc.

- The soul/spirit/consciousness does not survive after death

2. Knowledge consists of sensation, anticipation and feeling. A tripod of truth

- sensation being the external data gathered by our senses

- anticipation being the inborn data that exists before experience (something akin to a natural cultural consciousness)

- feeling being the impetus behind choice and avoidance (pleasure and pain)

3. The goal of life is to live pleasurably. Both Physically and Mentally. (aponia and ataraxia)

-the things which lead to pleasure are good and easy to acquire

-where there is no disturbance, (mental or physical) we are in pleasure

-one should moderate expectations and measure out a path to maximize pleasure, neither too much, nor too little. Not all pleasures are equal, not all pains to be avoided.

-friendship is crucial to a pleasurable life

-honesty and frankness are essential in friendship and in general interactions

An interesting application of AI to Lucretius and Epicurean philosophy.

On the Nature of Artificial Things

LucretiusGPT extends the philosophical poem "On the Nature of Things" to include artificial intelligence in its survey of the system of the world

www.truesciphi.ai

Quote from DavidN

Ya I already commented on the absurdity of his logic on the facebook page, I refuse to cede time to those who cannot properly form a rational thought without eating there own tail.

I know it's difficult to converse with people like this. But I couldn't just walk by and let the gentleman say those things without some sort of retort. If not for his benefit, then for the benefit of new viewers who would see those comments and perhaps be somehow persuaded by them. I felt like I should try and "strike a blow for Epicurus".

In the comments section of this video from the Society, a person attempts to disprove Epicurus' teachings on death using logic. I thought it might interest some in this thread.

Thanks for the link!

Thank you both for the responses. Cassius, I agree with your point that "the changes in understanding of how nature works do not change the conclusion..." I suppose Don articulated my difficulty better than I was able to. I guess I felt that in order to be a consistent Epicurean, I would have to make sense of his physics in light of modern understandings. "I do not, in any way, feel an obligation to adhere to the pre-scientific physics of 2,300 years ago to think of myself as an Epicurean..." This was the approach I've been taking and just wanted to see where more experienced Epicureans stood on the issue

I suppose one of the main difficulties initially, is how we can reconcile Epicurus' physics with modern physics? How far are we able to poeticize the teachings to fit in with our modern science? I'm aware how prescient Epicurus' views were and would like the opinion of more classical minded epicureans.