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I think this is the most practical/applied difference between Stoicism and Epicureanism, at least in the modern world.
I am trying for some time now to construct a real life example where a Stoic and an Epicurean will act fundamentally differently based on the Epicureans focus on pleasure instead of the Stoics focus on virtue in and of itself. In all examples I can think of they act the same.
Cassius, reneliza can you construct such a real world example?
See, this is my issue with relying on translations.
Some of us have to rely on translations. Not everyone speaks ancient greek :-D.
Thanks for bringing your thread back around to the Stoic/Epicurean question. My first thought when reading the list of virtues was Principal Doctrine 5
My translation: PD5 It is not possible to live a pleasurable life without the traits of (practical) wisdom, morality, and justice; and it is impossible to live with wisdom, morality, and justice without living pleasurably. When one of these is lacking, it is impossible to live a pleasurable life.
Consider in light of Fragment 519: The greatest fruit of justice is serenity. δικαιοσύνης καρπὸς μέγιστος ἀταραξία.
Epicurus clearly thinks the "virtues" are important, but they are important because they are instrumental to achieving a pleasurable life and not as ends or goals for their own sake.
If I read this correctly the virtues are not only important they are essential. They are necessary and sufficient for the pleasant life as in the mathematical equivalent sense "virtue <=> pleasurable life". As far as I interpret PD5 there is no difference between Stoicism and Epicureanism in regard to the connection between virtue and the pleasurable life. The difference lies only in the goal.
How would you define "morality" as a virtue? What would Epicurus have meant by this term?
Sorry to have hijacked your welcome with natural and necessary discussion. I will move that to a new thread.
As to this:. "Are there more or different virtues in Epicureanism than these? If yes, how are they defined?"
The ultimate answer is that a course of action is counterproductive if it does not lead to pleasure, so actions are judged virtuous or not in that context. You would find the explanation of this issue given by Torquatus in on Ends to be very helpful, because the thrust of his presentation is dedicated to this issue. I will get the link and add it here in a moment.
No need to be sorry. These are the discussions I am here for. When my initial comment lead to this even better :-D.
I will read Torquatus when you send the link.
It also brings up the idea of actually listing (on one's own, for oneself) what virtues lead to pleasure and a pleasant life.
This is an excellent idea.
I would say that there is no one-size-fits-all "absolute rule" list, because wisdom comes from thinking these things through for oneself
I concur that there can be no "absolute rule" list but I think many of us will come to quite similar answers when trying to define what virtue is. The details of these virtues will be individualistic. For example Justice looks different to everyone in the details.
If you will go through the DeWitt book and focus on understanding the "big picture" as soon as you can
After your comment I started reading Epicurus and his Philosophy by DeWitt. When I've finished it there will be many questions. Even for a non native english speaker it is easy to understand :-). Not many philosophy books fall in this category.
Thank you for the encouragement.
For an Epicurean, virtue is one of the tools to experience pleasure.
In Epicurean philosophy, what is virtuous depends on the particular context, whereas in Stoic philosophy, they seem to be rather absolute.
The 4 Stoic virtues are:
For the Stoics these are the only good things, with all others being (preferred or dispreferred) indifferents. The stoics are absolute when it comes to their cardinal (in a non christian sense) values. I think all of these virtues are important for a pleasurable life. I can't be unwise, unjust, without self discipline and a coward and have a happy life.
Are there more or different virtues in Epicureanism than these? If yes, how are they defined?
Hello!
I have been reading the forum without an account for some time now and I am very impressed by what you have built here. It is a treasure trove of wisdom in the all knowing landfill we call the internet.
About me
- currently in the later part of my thirties.
- German living in Germany
- Studied Computer Science
- Own a small consulting firm with ~10 Employees where we develop software for our corporate clients.
My way to Epicurus
For the last ten years I had an interest stoic philosophy, even once considering myself a capital S Stoic for some time. I read the stoic authors (mostly Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus) and first came into contact with Epicurus in Senecas Letters to Lucilius. I was prone to bursts of anger and practical Stoicism helped me to become much calmer and happier person. But there are some teachings in Stoicism that don’t fit well with the way I see the world. Especially that virtue is the end and that peace of mind only might follow from virtue never convinced me. I always thought that it should be the other way around, that peace of mind should be the goal.
After reading Hiram Crespo’s essay about Epicureanism in the book “How to live a good life” I had a look at Epicureanism. I read his book “Tending the epicurean garden” and am currently re-reading it and organising my notes.
Interests
My Interests are for the most part in applied philosophy. If philosophy does not change the way I live my day to day life, what is it good for. I keep a list of open questions at hand. Maybe you can guide me to interesting articles / forum posts addressing these:
- What is virtue for an epicurean?
- How does it differ from stoic virtue?
- How do you apply these virtues?
- What practical epicurean exercises are there?
- What are the practical differences between Epicureanism and Stoicism. Where would an Epicurean act differently from a Stoic?
This is the beginning of my epicurean journey. It is very pleasurable so far :-D.
