Posts by Pacatus

Cassius

Yes! I only want to add that VS40 is employing deductive logic (here a kind of reductio ad absurdum) in a way that illustrates one of the things deductive logic is good at: illustrating incoherent thinking. However, it is possible to construct a valid deductive syllogism that leads to an empirical falsity (i.e. the syllogism is valid, but not sound).

Empirical arguments (e.g. from the senses, feelings and prolepseis) depend largely on inference from revealed facts: inductive logic. Although none of that was formalized in Greek thinking of the time, Epicurus seems (to me at least) to have been a kind pf precursor on that path.

Cassius

That’s a good post, and I generally agree. But –

Just like Epicurus’ natural physicalism, a fundamental understanding of how (let alone if) we choose seems basic. Under strict determinism, those who (for example) follow Epicurus and those who follow (say) the Stoics are simply determined to do so – without any actual choice based on study and reflection.

The same for strict randomness: those who are Epicureans and those who are Stoics are just so – randomly (even if they think they have reasonably chosen).

So I do think these are important philosophical questions. (And, as I hope I have made clear, I reject both those polar extremes.)

I recall some old philosophical discussions of compatibilism that scrambled my brain.

Basically, I take its foundation to be that although some things are determined beyond our control (and affect the range of available choices in any situation), we are still ethically responsible for our choices because – within those constraints – we do choose (even if those constraints can be mitigating factors, ethically speaking).

Quote from Onenski

That's exactly the epicurean point of view, so far as I know, right?

I mean, Epicurus was not a compatibilist, he believed that we are free because the world is undetermined.

I think Epicurus thought that some things are determined and some are not (e.g. the "swerve"). Some things are up to us and some are not. If nothing at all is causally determined, then it all becomes random.

Just thinking "out loud" here, but strict determinism and strict randomness would have the same problems (both epistemologically and ethically).

Onenski

“Free will” can be a fraught concept. What is generally called “libertarian free will” (which might be what most people mean) is incoherent.

The term I learned in economics is “constrained choice” – which I suspect is closer to another version of free will called “compatibilism”: Yes we choose. But our choices are constrained by our resources, by circumstances and our own abilities – some of which are determined (e.g. by evolution), and some of which result from our own (past) choices.

And strict determinism would mean that our (under that principle, illusory) perception that we do choose is also determined. So it would seem to be a vicious circle: “Why do you think it’s all determined?” “Because I believe determinism is correct.” “Why do you think that?” “Because it’s determined …”

Somehow, I uploaded only one of the two essays (albeit twice) I came across. The other is this one:

Happy Twentieth! - TheHumanist.com

While reading Stephen Greenblatt’s award-winning book, The Swerve, three years ago, I stumbled on a delightful fact. It seems that devotees of the Greek…

thehumanist.com

And Kalosyni I agree with you about not calling Eikas a sabbath, but I found the analogy intriguing. Do other philosophies have a similar day of festivity, outside of religion?

Thank you Cassius ! And happy Eikas to you also -- and all here!

While doing some casual research on Eikas, I came upon the following two brief essays – in addition to discussions on here – which I enjoyed. The second one is, unfortunately, riddled with ads – but I was struck by the reference (quoting the SOFE folk) to Eikas as a kind of “sabbath.”

Eikas: The Dinner Party as Philosophy

Paste Magazine is your source for the best music, movies, TV, comedy, videogames, books, comics, craft beer, politics and more. Discover your favorite albums…

www.pastemagazine.com

Kudos, Kalosyni ! Well-chosen images, well-read -- and a simple introduction to the pleasure/pain principle that would be hard to beat: neither too simplistic nor too complicated for the beginner. Well done!

Welcome!

Eikadistes

Thanks! What I like about this one is the sense of a relaxed serenity.

Eikadistes

I also really like Genevra's portrait of "Epicurus in the Garden" on page 114 of your book (paperback version arrived today! ). Any chance you could add that one to the thread here? Many thanks!

Welcome!

Welcome!

"Why then, do I dwell at such length on pleasure? Because the fact that old age feels little longing for sensual pleasures not only is no cause for reproach, but rather is ground for the highest praise."

Well, I’m nearly ten years older than Cicero was when he died – so maybe he never experienced the sensual pleasure of knowing that your aging prostate still allows great relief when you first wake in the morning!

With that bit of crudity aside – and recognizing that “sensual” pleasures were not the be-all / end-all for Epicurus – I still enjoy cooking and eating simple meals, the fruit of the grape, the touch of one I love … and many other sensual pleasures. Does the range of such pleasures diminish with age? Absolutely! But I don’t find that to be cause of either distress or celebration. Besides, you can still find other pleasures.

Poor Cicero!

Quote from Don

The modern ones are all jazz riffs on that ancient image.

And those few ancient images may well have been "riffs" themselves?

Eikadistes

Just for curiosity, is the red fruit in "Epicurus Dines" pomegranate (perhaps) or tomatoes or ... ?

Tomatoes would be anachronistic, but -- as a poet of sorts -- I completely affirm anachronisms as a valid and vital part of artistic license! What is important is what the images (and, in poetry, also rhythms and word-sounds) evoke.

Interesting: Heraclitus was known as the weeping philosopher (grieving the state of the world), while Democritus was known as the laughing philosopher (with some argument over whether that was a mocking laughter at the state of the world, or – my preferred interpretation – trying to inject some cheer into the world, since cheerfulness was a main virtue for Democritus).

Perhaps, for Epicurus, a visage that captures at once his sadness at “what a mess the standard philosophers and religions had made of the world;” his sincere (serious) determination to right those wrongs as best he can, out of compassion for humanity; and a bit of a good-humored smile and twinkle in the eyes that reflect that compassion and kindness. At least, that’s the way I like to see it. And in that vein, I think that Genevra Catalano’s (Nate’s wife’s) rendering of the elder Epicurus (on the right of the three renderings I posted above) captures all of that the best. (The one on the left is by Allesandro Tomassi, and I posted it before with attribution; it reminds me of a person wise beyond his years that I briefly knew.)

Note: Catalano’s "Epicurus Dines" (also available on Etsy) shows a more pensive Epicurus.

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Democritus:

“Best is for a person to live a cheerful life as little distressed as possible.”

“A life without festivity is a long road without an inn.”

“cheerfulness”: Democritus’ Greek word was euthumia, which could also mean tranquility and contentment (cheerfulness is the predominant translation). Cheerfulness becomes a practice and a discipline that is seldom effortless.

I doubt that any one image can capture anything close to "the whole of the man." I use mostly the three below (in no particular order), depending on my mood or intuition of the moment:

frank1syl

Can we talk about pleasure versus displeasure in making lists? (Okay, bad joke.)

Every action you list, but for shunning by her family, is up to her – including refusing to argue back, even if that means walking away each and every time. (I’ve been in some very fraught and emotionally debilitating situations that I had to leave; hopefully, I would handle them better today – generally by being willing to leave sooner.) But I want to point out that 2. involves a question of self-honesty or pretense, and potentially damaging cognitive dissonance. So I don’t think that feigning accord is a sustainable option for anyone’s wellbeing.

With that said, I don’t see how the pleasure of staying with what you’ve implied are, essentially, an emotionally abusive family could possibly outweigh the pain – unless they desist from their behavior when Sally is around.

Quote from BrainToBeing

I think constantly in terms of "we" rather than "me". And, in the consideration of "we" I need to ask who would pay the price if I think only of me. So, for example, when practicing medicine I very clearly knew the agenda was to do what was appropriate for the patient, and not just beneficial to my pleasure.

So, are you really thinking in terms of “we” – which, by definition, also includes you (because “we” is relational)? Or are you saying that you think “constantly” only of others – and not yourself at all? (Rhetorical question: I don’t think you’re saying that at all.)

Does caring for others by practicing medicine (as opposed to practicing medicine just to enrich yourself) cause you to feel generally dissatisfied with your life? Does it displease you? I doubt it. Do mutually self-affirming and caring (loving) relationships bother you because the “we” includes you and your pleasure, as well as that of the other? I doubt it. Do you enjoy loving the people you love in those “we” relationships? I suspect so.

Epicurus extolled friendship. Friendship is a “we” relation. I think it’s foolish (and delusive) to imagine we can extend that “we relation” without bounds. Even if we’re thinking globally, we still act locally (and no one has a god’s-eye “view from nowhere”) – or else we likely end up flailing impotently. You may have a concern for all humanity, but you treat one patient at a time. But I also think it’s foolish to try to limit our concerns (for some of the “public goods” reasons I alluded to) to our own little band. So, we do recognize that we are necessarily and inescapably part of larger social “we” relations. And we inescapably end up weighing the effects of our choices on our nearer “we’s” relative to the larger “we’s”. (In your profession, maybe the word “triage” is sometimes applicable?)

Although ideals and other abstractions (like “virtue”) can be seductive, all our choices are always concrete:

“When it comes to shaping one’s personal behavior, all the rules of morality, as precise as they may be, remain abstract in the face of the infinite complexity of the concrete.”

—Hans Urs von Balthasar, Roman Catholic theologian

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Am I virtuous? I don’t know. Am I less kind and compassionate in my behavior than when I was steeped in idealist Christian/Kantian virtue-morality? It doesn’t seem so. Am I less concerned about “social justice” issues? I don’t think so (though, in my elder years, I am less directly active). Do I care if anyone thinks I’m not sufficiently virtuous/righteous/good? Not really. I just don’t think in those terms anymore. Do I “feel good” about my choices after (Hemingway)? Sometimes yes, sometimes no; when “no,” I try to ask why and amend – and do better next time. But that “feeling good” just is pleasure. Call it conscience if you wish; the feeling is the guide, the rationales (important as they are) come after.

Like TauPhi , I’m just a guy on the internet drawing on Epicurean philosophy – as best I understand it – to inform my own choices. I may understand it differently tomorrow. In the end, Epicurus – like all the Hellenistic schools – thought of philosophy as a process of therapy, not just an intellectual exercise.