Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Patrikios

This cuts into dinner time and PBS Newshour time for some

Thanks for speaking up...we can likely come up with more ideas...

Coming up next week...our monthly 20th gathering

For Level 03 and above -- we will send out the link a day before. If you are Level 03 and have not yet attended, let us know if you are interested and we will add you to the private group which receives the link.

Looking forward to seeing you there

So potentially we will have "First Mondays" start a half hour early and run from 7:30pm ET till 9pm ET.

And what will be the time for Sundays ? And once per month?

Quote from sanantoniogarden

I like the simplicity of the moon symbol, however it's similarity to the crescent and star might be confusing for some and offensive to others.

Yes, now I begin to think that could be an issue.

Also maybe looks "wiccan".

Thinking to set this idea aside for now.

Also, it seems that usefulness may come first and then the more it is used the more "feeling" it has. And some may feel it is useful, and some may not feel it is useful (lol)...and so everyone can make their own symbols.

But I like this concept that Eikadistes made some time ago... I've made it as a plain symbol without words:

Since the Epicureans did attend and celebrate the monthly festivals, perhaps they focused on the positive attributes, and according to PD01: "That which is blissful and immortal has no troubles itself, nor does it cause trouble for others, so that it is not affected by anger or gratitude (for all such things come about through weakness)".

Here's a list of their positive strengths (from Google search):

• Zeus (Jupiter): King of the gods, god of the sky, law, and order, often associated with strength and justice.
• Hera (Juno): Queen of the gods, goddess of marriage, childbirth, and family, known for her protectiveness and strength.
• Athena (Minerva): Goddess of wisdom, strategic warfare, and crafts, embodying intelligence and skill.
• Apollo (Apollo): God of music, healing, arts, and light, associated with beauty and inspiration.
• Aphrodite (Venus): Goddess of love, beauty, and desire, embodying grace and passion.
• Demeter (Ceres): Goddess of agriculture, fertility, and the harvest, symbolizing abundance and nurturing.
• Hephaestus (Vulcan): God of fire, metalworking, and craftsmanship, known for his skill and innovation.
• Hermes (Mercury): Messenger of the gods, god of travel, trade, and hospitality, representing swiftness and communication.

This study goup would also be open to older members as well, so it isn't limited to newer members.

This thread is for discussing the potential of adding a regular Zoom for those who want an introductory level approach.

Our current meetings are as follows:

• Our First Monday session is a once per month meet and greet targeted at new participants.
  
• Our Wednesday night EST meeting have been devoted to status updates on recent threads on the forum and going through the fragments in Bryan's work on Usener's Epicurea.

(Our Twentieth session is only available for Level 03 and higher, and is a once per month commemoration of Epicurus and other early Epicureans, and we've been using it for advanced level general discussion of how we've pursued applying Epicurean principles over the last 30 days).

The thought is that we need a regular series for those who mainly want to get "introduced" to the basics of the philosophy

We've done several series in the past on the Principal Doctrines, the Vatican Sayings, Frances Wright's Book, DeWitt's book, and Emily Austin's book.

The Principal Doctrines would likely be a good organizing theme for the topics, but we need to work in explanations from the other sources so the doctrines will be more clear to people new to the framework of ideas.

We need to think about whether to do one per week or exactly how many per month, plus decide a time.

Potentials include:

-- "Second Sunday PD's Study Group" - Second Sunday of the month at 1pm ET (which should work for European time zone members and anyone in US who likes that time)
-- "Last Monday or Last Tuesday PD's Study Group" - Last Monday of the month at 8pm ET

-or-

-- change the "First Monday" to start a half hour earlier - meet and greet for the first half hour, and then proceed to PD's study group.

Let us know your thoughts on this here in the thread and we'll continue planning.

Thinking on this further...symbols come about through intense practice over time, through religious feelings and meditations, and religious application/practices of thoughts and ideas.

You can read about the development of "Om" on Wikipedia to see that it is a long and complex process born out of the usefulness of the symbol.

So creation of an Epicurean symbol must have an interface between feeling and usefulness.

Right now I see a usefulness of the 20th moon symbol that Eikadistes created, as this is something all Epicureans would partake in.

Quote from Julia

This seems to imply getting agreement before actual usage, and I don't think that's how it works. Symbols like these are adopted and used without asking for universal agreement, let alone permission, and they either make it or they don't.

Regarding the use of the symbol of the cross: "Before the 4th century AD, multiple Christian symbols were used, including the fish (Ichthys), the anchor, the ship, and the Chi Rho. These symbols were often found in catacombs and other early Christian art. The cross itself wasn't a prominent symbol until later, with the main focus on symbols like the fish which represented Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior. Christians were initially hesitant to openly display the cross due to fear of ridicule and persecution from the Roman authorities. Emperor Constantine's conversion to Christianity in the 4th century was a major turning point. He promoted the cross as a symbol of the faith and even used it in his battle banners. The Edict of Milan in 313 legalized Christianity, paving the way for the open display and celebration of the cross." Source: Google search.

An idea, the animal who most enjoys life holding a pearl of wisdom:

Quote from Cassius

"In Epicurean theory, is ANYTHING in life (even desire) always pleasurable except pleasure, or is anything always painful except pain?"

Are you asking if a particular set of unfolding circumstances will always produce pleasure or always produce pain in a human being?

Such that:

If I am hungry and I eat something sweet it will always produce a feeling of pleasure.

-or-

If I someone forcefully sticks bamboo shoots under my fingernails it is always painful.

??

Thinking further about the question "What is the goal of life?"

...more directly: "What is my goal in life?" -- I would add more such as well-being, satisfaction, peace of mind, and pleasant abiding...in addition to pleasure (enjoyment) and happiness.

I don't think I'll be able to feel settled about this until I feel that "natural and unnecessary" has been adequately defined.

We know that Epicurus was 1) influenced by, 2) transformed and adapted, and 3) argued against, some aspects of the philosophical ideas that were popular during his time in ancient Greece.

Does anyone know which section of Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics talks about "unnecessary desires" ? Bryan  Don  Joshua

According to an internet search:

"Aristotle also identified unnecessary desires, which he viewed as those that go beyond the essential and contribute to excessive consumption, luxury, and unhappiness. These desires are often associated with material possessions and status, rather than genuine human needs."

Thinking about "natural and unnecessary"...(natural but unnecessary is another way to think about it):

You need a jacket to keep warm but it doesn't matter what it looks like.

Unnecessary for it to be a new jacket.
Unnecessary for it to be "in fashion" or a particular style.
Unnecessary for it to be a certain type of fabric or color.
And, a blanket could keep you warm if you don't have a jacket, but a jacket is easier to wear because it won't fall off.

Here is a graphic that I made some time ago.

Thinking to soon make one regarding "natural and necessary/unnecessary" and "unnatural/unnecessary".

Important Update! First Monday is tommorow evening, and we are changing the topic of discussion to this thread:

Post

Why pursue unnecessary desires?

Hey folks!

I’m getting stumped on something that previously I felt I had a firm grasp on: Why pursue (natural) unnecessary desires, if necessary desires are all that are needed for happiness? If the limit of pleasure is the absence of pain (ie. 100% pleasure 0% pain), aren’t unnecessary desires merely variation?

I recall the ‘cup’ infographic. One of the examples of a “bad” cup is one that is half full, in which only necessary desires are pursued - a cup of asceticism. I can acknowledge…

Rolf

May 2, 2025 at 12:41 PM

Rolf A few thoughts (a little late)...

You would avoid pursuing "unnatural and unnecessary" pleasures such as power, fame, and great wealth because they are very difficult to obtain and the pursuit of them comes with great troubles and pains and the attainment of them also results in great troubles and pains.

As for "natural and necessary" (things which are necessary for survival and living a good and happy life - food, water, shelter, safety, clothing, friends, exercise, study of philosophy etc.) -- these should hopefully come about fairly easily and if they don't we buckle down and put in some effort and tolerate short term discomfort so that these will be satisfied).

And as for "natural and unnecessary" (things which are like "icing on the cake" of life - great variations of sensations and "luxuries") -- we realize that these are not the main focus of life but we do not shun them when they are readily available and easy to get, and knowing that we can best enjoy "luxuries/luxurious sensations" not through continuous enjoyment, but intermittently.

And especially with regard to "natural and unnecessary", this Vatican Saying:

VS 71: "Ask this question of every desire: what will happen to me if the object of desire is achieved, and what if not?"

And we wouldn't invest a great amount of effort for obtaining the "natural and unnecessary" pleasures especially if it takes away time from friendships and all the necessary things for a good and happy life. (It is important to take note that we see that many people in the modern world put a lot of mental investment into thoughts of pursuing variations of sensation, so it seems like an acceptable thing to do, when in reality they are ignoring other important areas of their life).

***

Edit note, 1:14 pm ET - I am thinking further that another way to think about "natural and unnecessary" is the desire for things which are luxurious AND cost beyond one's means. And the purpose of excluding these is so that you can enjoy the satisfaction of what is easily at hand (you aren't endlessly longing for things beyond your means) and also to support a lifestyle of "self-suffiency" (no need to sell your soul to the "devil" (a king or high ranking person, or in modern times climbing a corporate ladder) in an attempt to get luxurious things.

Coming up this next Monday is our "First Monday Epicurean Philosophy Discussion" via Zoom. This is open to all forum members and is a great way to meet and discuss with others who are also studying the philosophy of Epicurus.

I will be giving a very short presentation on Epicurean canonics.

Updated! Discussion topic has been changed to this thread.

There will also be time for questions on any aspects of Epicurean philosophy, and so we hope to see some of our newer members join.

If you have not previously attended, please let us know if you are interested here in this thread. Hope to see you there!

In preparation for the upcoming First Monday, I was thinking about how we know that the earth revolves around the sun, and that reasoning is sometimes needed.

I did this search query on Google: "before the space age did determining that the earth revolves around the sun require logic or reasoning beyond observations":