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Posts by Kalosyni
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Does Cicero think so, because from a theoretical Stoic point of view he is able to ignore bodily pain but his public standing is beyond his means?
Cicero is a bit of a mix, and even a few parts of the Torquatus section have Stoic elements (for example, the father could have banished his son, rather than killing him).
"Recognition of the environment must come naturally. We are drawn to strive for our own healing alone."
Vatican Saying 64: "The esteem of others is outside our control; we must attend instead to healing ourselves."
1. Good and evil have all but vanished from my vocabulary. I don't know whether it's something related to simply getting older or a societal shift or indeed related to the study of Epicureanism.
As for myself, I still use the word "good" but virtually never use the word "evil". "Evil" has attached to it a flavor of the Christian religion.
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Welcome to the forum! DerekC
You've now been added to the private group message which contains the link...looking forward to meeting you!
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It was good to see everyone today at the Zoom.
A further thought:
We don't act "morally" because of virtue, but we act "morally" because of pleasure and pain (and the fear of long- term unpleasant consequences). And acting wisely is a pleasure.
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Epikouros fully acknowledged that all pleasures are based in active pleasures, but he identified the pleasure of being satisfied (i.e., "established pleasures") as the natural goal of living things.
Unlike ascetics, we do not deny the body -- and unlike the average man, we do not deny having reached full pleasure when we are satisfied.
"Eating" is pleasurable, but a life dedicated to "eating" is sad and unhealthy -- and so for the rest of the active pleasures. If we reach the point of satisfaction and wonder what else our body needs, we are missing the point. If we form a lifestyle focused on satisfying our physical pleasures, our intellectual abilities will suffer.
But bodily satisfaction is the beginning of the intellectual life -- and once this is achieved, then here it is healthy to settle in, and consume and consume (philosophy and science) as a lifestyle.
Thank you Bryan Well said!
Also, we carry on with our household duties, with joy and laughter [friendship] . --Vatican Saying 41
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I think this is typically the case for most people. For me, "clearing the mind" is pleasant before sleep, but when I am awake and ready, then "mind-clearing meditation" feels like intellectual asceticism and it is at this point I will notice the extra sensations you mention.
Thanks Bryan , I also don't like the idea of "clearing the mind" -- as when you are awake there will always be something there. Better to focus on pleasurable sensations such as focusing on the feeling of the breath in the body (as it goes in and out, making it smooth and deep and allowing the speed of the breath to feel good as needed). Or there is the state of mental flow when engaged in concentration (arts, crafts, etc.) when the mind is engaged and focusing fully while also feeling relaxed (just right) as at the same time one is engaged in the craft. (This is just an aside, had to share
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Hi Everyone!
On the first Monday of each month, is our "meet-and-greet" and Epicurean philosophy discussion - open to all forum members!
How to attend: Please let us know if you are interested in attending by posting here in this thread, or messaging Cassius or Kalosyni. You will then be added to our private group message with the link.
Previous attendees will automatically receive the link via private message (no need to RSVP). If you have been absent from the forum for more than six months, please let us know so we can add you back into the private group message.
We will send out the link and a reminder about the meeting on the day before.
Our monthly agenda:
- Round the table greetings
- Discussion on popular forum threads, Lucretius Today Podcast, and/or Epicurean philosophy discussion topic
- Time for answering any questions about the forum or Epicurean philosophy
Looking forward to seeing you there!
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When I'm in a "neutral state" - not sick, injured, etc. - and I focus on my body's senses, I pretty much always notice some kind of ache, tenseness, stomach pain, itchiness, or some other uncomfortable feeling that I'm generally able to ignore when I'm not not fixating on it.
This reminds me that it does take work to tune into pleasure (I myself need to put more effort into it).
Have you tried observing the feeling that comes up when you come home from work and then finally sit (flop down) down onto a couch...ahhh what a relief.
Or...on a cold morning jumping into a nice warm shower...ahhh how good the warmth is.
Or...going for a jog and feeling a bit of a runner's high...or a brisk walk feeling the body breathing smoothly and functioning well.
As for sitting still and feeling pleasure, that takes work, and Buddhist meditation is a good way to find it (also it depends on the teacher and type of meditation) -- There isn't any evidence that Epicureans did meditation (but Torquatus explains the meaning of Cryssypus' hand which could be seen as very similar to meditation - I'll look for that thread and edit in the link when i find it).
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Every Sunday we host a Zoom for our forum members to discuss Epicurean philosophy. Our summer 2025 topics for discussion are based on the forum FAQ section. Each week will be a different topic.
If you are interested in attending the next one (and haven't already received a link by private message), please post to this meeting thread, or message Cassius or Kalosyni.
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There is a lot of good stuff here is this thread - I'll need to re-read. (I've struggled with these ideas myself.)
It almost seems that "satisfaction" is the goal...
---> satisfaction which arises with the removal of pain
---> satisfaction which arises from easy pleasures that are not harmful or cause bad consequences
---> satisfaction with the types of pleasures that are available (through-out a given day it is mostly mental pleasures, with a few moments of pleasurable bodily sensations).
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People seem to want/need a "greater purpose" for their lives, or to understand the "value" of the lives, to understand the significance of their lives in the grand scheme. That search for "meaning" seems like trying to chase a mirage. There is no ultimate or supernatural or divine purpose, value, or significance to an individual's living their life over and above pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain, just like every other living creature.
Another thought occurs to me now...
What about ancestors and descendants, or where we have come from (or out of) and where our off-spring are going. I'm thinking that this should be the kind of "meaning" that people consider, and it would be natural to wish a pleasant and long life for one's off-spring. And perhaps the world would be a different place if this would be fully considered when politicians and CEOs made decisions.
But I sincerely think people are fooling themselves (and more power to them) when they call that their life's purpose or meaning rather than acknowledge they're seeking pleasure.
What happens when you no longer believe you are experiencing "peak pleasure"? I would define "peak pleasure" as the kind of pleasure that doesn't require any contemplation because the pleasure is direct and at a level of intensity that you directly feel it in your body (no need to ask yourself "is this pleasurable?" because it just is). This may be the kind of pleasure that can "be okay" when you are young, but you wouldn't engage in (nor can you) as you get older because 1) your body isn't at the fitness or endurance level needed; 2) your nerves and reflexes have aged; 3) you can't safely metabolize sugar/alcohol anymore; 4) there are some risks involved which involve you and other people - "gather ye rose-buds while ye may" (intentionally vague here
).And so...all that you are left with are the quiet pleasures of brief moments of mental enjoyment. Then is seems that "meaning" becomes a way to enhance mental pleasure (depending on how you cognize it).
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As far as I understand, Epicurean philosophy would say that this feeling of having a "spirit/soul" is legitimate, but it is dependent on the body, and so it dies when the body dies. And so we are not eternal, but we exist only for a short time.
Perhaps, if there is any aspect of Epicurean philosophy that could feel "spiritual", it would be this. And then we would value and honor our friends in a kind of awe of life - that this is amazing that we are alive, thinking, feeling, contemplating, reasoning, celebrating -- we would regularly bestow gratitude and words of appreciation.
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First we must ask ourselves: What do we mean by "meaning"?
Do we mean being a part of something bigger than ourselves? Then it is in friendship and community.
Do we mean a telos, objective, or aim? Then it is in pleasure.
Do we mean a sense of fulfillment? Then it is in the things that give us secure and consistent pleasure, varying by person. Some common sources are friendship, family, and hobbies.
These are very good questions, and I think that having a sense of meaning in one's life would encompass all three.
I would also add what is a human being's place in the universe.
People who buy into the need for meaning rarely (if ever) talk about other animals having or requiring meaning. Why is that? In a strictly materialist universe, why would only humans have/require meaning?
Is "meaning" just another platonic ideal, incompatible with a strictly materialist worldview?I think the "idea" of "meaning" comes from religion - and religion comes about because it is difficult to fathom mortality (so all religions create a framework for the afterlife).
Also, the sense of conciousness that humans have creates a "gestalt" feeling of having a "spirit/soul" essence.
As far as I understand, Epicurean philosophy would say that this feeling of having a "spirit/soul" is legitimate, but it is dependent on the body, and so it dies when the body dies. And so we are not eternal, but we exist only for a short time.
Needing a sense of "meaning" can be considered "natural" and arising out of human consciousness.
Perhaps for those people who were not raised with a particular religion, they will cognate "meaning" as something different than those who were raised with religious "fundamentalism". Those raised with religion may end up needing more time to adjust from an "eternal consciousness" framework to a "finite consciousness". Also, the switch from "supernatural powers" permeating the earth, to "material forces that follow laws of physics" (but this would be a kind of "recovering from religion" issue that some may need to ponder - and what may initially feel like a loss of meaning).
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Happy Birthday AxA !
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Habitual attachment to an unnecessary pleasure creates mental turmoil (and sometimes unpleasant bodily sensations as well, aka withdrawal symptoms).
Coffee...since it is easy to get and make at home, and just one-and-a-half cups a day in the morning feels like it creates mental sharpness for me. The caffeine addiction doesn't cause any mental turmoil.
So it is really depends on whether or not there are any bad consequences, and whether or not it is easy to get (and not expensive so that it does not deplete one's funds).
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Welcome to the forum Karim !
You may like this video overview presentation by Cassius which covers 11 key concepts (if you haven't already seen it):
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Amazing work and the sheer number of pieces is also amazing! Bryan!
Interestingly I notice there are two square rings in one of the photos in which the greyish-white looks like moonstone, and the yellow one looks like amber, which is very nice!
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I used Grok to help create a decluttering system:
My prompt:
Create a decluttering method that is based on the following values: 1) household item, 2) beautiful item, 3) status item, 4) entertainment, hobbie or sport. Also include the following categories: use everyday, use once a month, somewhat likely to use sometime this year, highly unlikely to ever use again.
Grok's reply (everything that follows it Grok's reply):
Below is a decluttering method tailored to your specified values and categories. This method, called the Value-Based Decluttering System, helps you evaluate household items based on their purpose and usage frequency to make informed decisions about keeping, donating, or discarding them.
Value-Based Decluttering System
Step 1: Define the Values
Each item in your home will be evaluated based on one of these four values:
- Household Item: Items essential for daily living (e.g., kitchen tools, bedding, cleaning supplies).
- Beautiful Item: Items that bring aesthetic joy or enhance your space (e.g., artwork, decorative vases).
- Status Item: Items that signal prestige, achievement, or social standing (e.g., designer clothing, luxury goods).
- Entertainment, Hobby, or Sport: Items used for leisure, recreation, or personal passions (e.g., books, sports equipment, crafting supplies).
Step 2: Categorize by Usage Frequency
For each item, determine how often you use it or are likely to use it:
- Use Everyday: Items you rely on daily or almost daily (e.g., toothbrush, coffee maker).
- Use Once a Month: Items used regularly but not daily (e.g., vacuum cleaner, specialty cookware).
- Somewhat Likely to Use Sometime This Year: Items you might use within the next 12 months (e.g., seasonal decorations, camping gear).
- Highly Unlikely to Ever Use Again: Items you haven’t used in years and don’t foresee using (e.g., outdated electronics, old textbooks).
Step 3: Decluttering Process
- Gather Items: Start with one area of your home (e.g., a room, closet, or drawer). Pull out all items to evaluate them.
- Sort by Value: Assign each item to one of the four value categories (Household, Beautiful, Status, Entertainment/Hobby/Sport). If an item fits multiple values, choose the primary one based on why you keep it.
- Assign Usage Frequency: For each item, determine its usage category (Everyday, Monthly, Yearly, Unlikely).
- Apply the Decision Matrix: Use the following guidelines to decide whether to keep, store, donate, sell, or discard each item:
- Household Items:
- Everyday: Keep in an easily accessible location.
- Monthly: Store in a convenient but less immediate spot (e.g., a pantry or closet).
- Yearly: Store in a labeled, less accessible area (e.g., attic, garage).
- Unlikely: Donate or discard unless it’s irreplaceable (e.g., emergency tools).
- Beautiful Items:
- Everyday: Display prominently if it brings daily joy.
- Monthly: Rotate seasonally or store for occasional display.
- Yearly: Store carefully for special occasions or reconsider keeping if it’s rarely enjoyed.
- Unlikely: Donate, sell, or gift to someone who will appreciate it.
- Status Items:
- Everyday: Keep only if actively used and aligned with your current lifestyle.
- Monthly: Store carefully (e.g., designer bags in dust covers) and reassess annually.
- Yearly: Consider selling or donating if the item no longer reflects your values.
- Unlikely: Sell or donate; status items lose value if unused.
- Entertainment, Hobby, or Sport:
- Everyday: Keep accessible in dedicated hobby spaces.
- Monthly: Store in an organized, labeled area for easy access.
- Yearly: Store in a labeled container and set a deadline (e.g., use within 12 months or donate).
- Unlikely: Donate or sell, especially if the hobby or sport is no longer active.
- Household Items:
- Organize and Act:
- Keep: Organize kept items by value and frequency, ensuring everyday items are most accessible.
- Store: Use labeled bins or containers for monthly and yearly items, noting their value category.
- Donate/Sell: Box up items for donation or list them for sale within a week to avoid procrastination.
- Discard: Recycle or trash items that are broken or unusable.
- Review Periodically: Revisit your system every 6–12 months to reassess yearly and unlikely items, ensuring your space reflects your current needs and values.
Step 4: Tips for Success
- Start Small: Begin with one drawer or shelf to build momentum.
- Ask Key Questions: For each item, ask, “Does this align with my current values?” and “When did I last use this?”
- Limit Sentimental Items: For items that don’t fit the four values but hold emotional weight, limit to one small, labeled “memory box.”
- Track Progress: Keep a log of donated or sold items to feel accomplished and motivated.
- Involve Others: If decluttering a shared space, discuss values and usage with household members to align decisions.
Example Application
Item: A designer handbag
- Value: Status Item
- Usage: Somewhat Likely to Use This Year (used for special events)
- Decision: Store carefully in a dust bag and reassess next year. If unused by then, consider selling.
Item: A set of watercolor paints
- Value: Entertainment/Hobby
- Usage: Highly Unlikely to Ever Use Again (haven’t painted in years)
- Decision: Donate to a local art program or school.
Item: A coffee maker
- Value: Household Item
- Usage: Use Everyday
- Decision: Keep on the kitchen counter for easy access.
This method ensures your decluttering decisions align with your values and practical needs, creating a space that’s functional, beautiful, and meaningful. Let me know if you’d like a checklist, worksheet, or further customization!
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*Edit: My own personal definition of "status item" is any jewelry or fancy clothing (I don't own designer items).
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Our key takeaway was to ask the question "does this bring me joy?" of each item being considered.
For some reason that particular decluttering prompt doesn't really work for me (likely multiple reasons why).
