Posts by Kalosyni

VS 16: "No one who sees what is bad chooses it willingly; instead he is lured into seeing it as good compared to what is even worse, and thus he is trapped."

Some thoughts on this...

Reasoning further on this to get a bigger picture on this: the calculation with regard to time is needed: short term outcomes, medium term outcomes, and long term outcomes. And also missing is not having properly reasoned through all possible outcomes and the likelihood of those outcomes coming to pass.

Also, this is true if one is willing to gamble that something unwanted won't happen as a consequence...but then over time not knowing if bad consequences will result is greatly disturbing/troubling and also tends to snowball into even more gambling with one's future.

A simple example: choosing to lie instead of telling the truth, and then forever having to lie to cover up the first lie...ends up being exhausting and then eventually either the truth is found out or the person forgets to keep lying to cover up their first lie...which results in further problems (others no longer trust that person)...etc.

Quote from Matteng

the Epicureans are the one who doesn´t accept Pain and try to avoid it.
Epicureans say Stoics doesn´t accept or want avoid (Painful/harmful) Emotions.

Epicureans seek pleasure, but at times they endure pain when it prevents a greater pain or leads to the pleasures that come with necessary things like food/shelter/health of the body and happiness of the soul -- This can be found in the Letter to Menoeceus.

I'm guessing that Stoics think that they need to be indifferent toward pleasures because they don't believe that there are certain pleasures which are easy to get, and also they don't trust that pleasure can lead to good results. And it seems that they may see pleasures as a distraction from being perfectly courageous (etc.) and a distraction from having the appearances in front of others of being virtuous. (Stoics want esteem in the eyes of others, but this won't necessarily lead to a happy life).

Emotions are a motivator for desiring, but if someone doesn't know how to prudently pursue pleasure, then they may think that they need to avoid feeling desire (and any emotions that lead to desire).

Here is a modern psychology article that is a must-read for anyone interested in the role of feelings and emotions in well-being:

The Key Skill We Rarely Learn: How to Feel Your Feelings

I feel my feelings! Probably not. But with courage and practice, we can cultivate the skill to deeply connect to ourselves and our values, opening up a world…

www.psychologytoday.com

I just verified with Cassius that the First Monday Meet and Greet Zoom for tonight is officially canceled. We hold the meeting on an as-needed basis for new members. We will set up another as soon as we have the need, so anyone with interest or questions regarding attendance please message Cassius or myself.

*****

(btw...I am feeling mostly better today, but not quite 100 percent yet).

Quote from Matteng

When I understood Philodemus right, I think the Epicurean view would only match with the Stoic view when the Emotion

1) has harmful consequences ( pleasure then is not choiceworthy for example )
2) is irrational, based on empty believe
3) is based on unnecessary desire

In short when the Emotions lead to more pain than pleasure.

Thank you Matteng for pointing this out.

Perhaps there is a way to fine-tune the differences, however, and especially because both feelings and emotions are important for making sense of the world, and so we need them as valid input for making good choices. Feelings and emotions have important input and shouldn't just be brushed aside in a "stoic" fashion. If something is actually "irrational" you would want to take the time to fully understand why, and that means you need to be able to tolerate the discomfort of seeing and understanding the big picture.

I just found this article: "ΓΕΝΕΣΙΑ. A Forgotten Festival of the Dead" - about Genesia:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/636925

On a less serious note...

Maybe we should proclaim October 31st as "Dress up like an ancient Greek or Roman" day!

From Wikipedia:

Quote

Care of the dead and the loving duty toward one's ancestors (pietas) were fundamental aspects of ancient Roman culture.^[52] A clear manifestation of this is Roman Republican era portrait busts which may have originated in the practice of making death masks of ancestors which were displayed in the home and during funerary rites and on the anniversary of the ancestor's death.

And further down:

Quote

Ancient Rome

edit

Detail from an early second-century Roman sarcophagus depicting the death of Meleager

See also: Roman funerals and burial

The Romans, like many Mediterranean societies, regarded the bodies of the dead as polluting.^[66] During Rome's Classical period, the body was most often cremated, and the ashes placed in a tomb outside the city walls. Much of the month of February was devoted to purifications, propitiation, and veneration of the dead, especially at the nine-day festival of the Parentalia during which a family honored its ancestors. The family visited the cemetery and shared cake and wine, both in the form of offerings to the dead and as a meal among themselves. The Parentalia drew to a close on February 21 with the more somber Feralia, a public festival of sacrifices and offerings to the Manes, the potentially malevolent spirits of the dead who required propitiation.^[67] One of the most common inscriptional phrases on Latin epitaphs is Dis Manibus, abbreviated D.M, "for the Manes gods", which appears even on some Christian tombstones. The Caristia on February 22 was a celebration of the family line as it continued into the present.^[68]

A noble Roman family displayed ancestral images (imagines) in the tablinum of their home (domus). Some sources indicate these portraits were busts, while others suggest that funeral masks were also displayed. The masks, probably modeled of wax from the face of the deceased, were part of the funeral procession when an elite Roman died. Professional mourners wore the masks and regalia of the dead person's ancestors as the body was carried from the home, through the streets, and to its final resting place.^[69]

You can read about various cultures and veneration of the dead at this wikipedia entry. (It doesn't say anything about ancient Greece).

Veneration of the dead - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My guess is that Epicurus would participated only because it was so widely practiced and seemed necessary to those who were not Epicureans.

Since we don't have an American annual ritual of ancestor veneration, then I think it would feel awkwar to try to start doing that, especially if as Epicureans we don't believe that a spirit survives death.

Thank you wbernys for your RSVP! We will send out the link the day before the meeting by private conversation. Looking forward to meeting you!

Welcome to the forum AthenianGarden

Specially inviting: ranc1  Randall Moose  SillyApe  ScottW  warjuning  Pimagus  chump  MarkJW  wbernys  nothelpfuldoug  epicurista  yonder  Zarathustra  Hubblefanboy  luketn9

Please RSVP either here if you are Level 02, or RSVP in your Welcome Thread if you are Level 01.

I am currently thinking about how every person both understands (comprehends) and implements, Epicurean philosophy uniquely. Some people put most of their focus onto the ethics, and others really prefer contemplating "the nature of things".

We each understand the telos uniquely and we each have our own reasons for why we continue to implement the philosophy in our own lives. Our choices and avoidances are also unique to our given situations.

I've been thinking about why that is, and have been thinking about how individual temperaments and individual formative childhood experiences influence how we make sense of Epicurean philosophy, and the kinds of evaluations we each make regarding pleasure, pain, and formulation of guessing future outcomes and consequences when we make choices.

I made this chart as a way to think about how we individually move through choices. Of course this uses a rather primitive understanding of temperament (based on the four humors). In modern times we have the Myers-Briggs personality type indicator.

So here on the forum, the different ways of interpreting the Epicurean philosophy arise out of individual differences in temperaments.

With an in-person group we would have quite a task of determining what activities to do as a group, and would likely have to split up into smaller groups... for example: those that are seeking quiet and therapeutic aspects, and those that are seeking ambitious goals of spreading the words of Epicurus.

I've been pondering in my mind what would be the most succinct way to state the Epicurean canon, and I see this thread with the title: "Making Epicurean Canonics Understandable" which seems like a good place to post (but I have not read the posts here yet, as I wanted to make my statement while it was still fresh in my mind.)

So here it goes:

1. What is "true and false" is known through the physical senses

2. What is "good and bad" is known by feelings of pleasure or pain

3. What is "right or wrong" is known through the mental anticipations

I don't have any particular text source for these statements in mind, and they may be wrong especially the third one. But I am hoping that people can correct me and hopefully make equally short statements that summarize the canon, such that the mind can comprehend them easily and they can be remembered easily.

-- Cassius  Don  Joshua  Bryan  Eikadistes (and anyone else).

Coming up on November 3rd...we are especially inviting our new forum members, and any forum members who haven't previously attended a Zoom meeting, to a "Meet and Greet" where there will be time to meet fellow forum members and to ask questions about the forum and Epicurean philosophy.

Cassius will be on hand to facilitate the meeting. Established members are also invited to come and meet new members!

We hold this meeting on an "as needed basis," so we ask that all members please RSVP. The meeting will only be held if at least one new member indicates they are available.

Level 02 and 03: please RSVP here in this thread.

Level 01 members: please post in your Welcome thread that you would like to attend or message Cassius using the "conversations" feature.

Hope to see you there!

Happy Birthday Joshua! Wishing you everything cozy and nice for your birthday!

Excerpt adapted from Torquatus section:

"...the earliest meetings and associations and tendencies towards the establishment of familiarity do arise on account of pleasure, yet when experience has gradually produced intimacy, then affection ripens to such a degree...that...friends are loved in themselves and for their own sake."

-- and for the sense of mental pleasure that arises when thinking of the friend.

Quote from DaveT

You might be amazed at the absolute craziness of the tourism there from the beginning of September all the way through October every year. They claim over a million people visit Salem, and Halloween is the epitome of their tourism season.

I had no idea that this was happening, and this is definitely an indicator of the current cultural "zietgeist" (lol...zietgeist).

Quote from Adrastus

I am pretty 'bah, humbug' about Halloween as it is celebrated around here and find it deeply unpleasant. I think it trains for painful anticipations and painful attitudes towards death. There is no exchange of wisdom about death or the ancestors. There is no learning about the nature of death, but showing off unrealistic and grotesque forms...

...

Culturally it's just devolving into an extension of the increasingly distubing and pornographic horror and survival media that is getting created these days that has basically dropped the pretense of being about entertainment, and truly we become the stories we keep telling.

It seems pretty unnatural to "glorify" decay and ugliness (ugly witches, goblins, monsters, and bloodied faces/bodies) and it seems that on some level this is an expression of anger and hopelessness.

It is like an expression of a "thanatos drive," or a kind of death instinct (Sigmund Freud's theory of a fundamental human drive toward death and destruction) which stands in opposition to the life instinct of Eros (that which drives creation and survival).

To counter-act this, in Epicurean philosophy we have a Principal Doctrines/Vatican Sayings which point toward using cognitive re-appraisal, and a good example is Vatican Saying 35.

This wikipedia article:

Quote

There is varied experimental evidence that illustrates the properties of appraisal theories. A meta analysis found that 75% of studies showed statistically significant relationships between appraisal and emotions.^[8] This encapsulates the core of appraisal theories that interpretations of experiences is what gives rise to emotions.

Source

But will probably need to start a new thread on this topic. Since having a certain level of external goods is also necessary for happiness (not just internal focus).

Happy Birthday Rolf!

Happy Twentieth Everyone!

Just one idea for an alternative to Halloween...

...dress up as a blissful and immortal being...and eat cake and ice-cream!

I just found this video, by Gregory Sadler, "Mortality of Mind and Spirit" gives a good introductory overview:

Looks like he has done a whole series on Lucretius.