Posts by Bryan

"Among what is considered just, that which actually proves advantageous in serving the need of reciprocal engagement has the character of justice, whether it is the same for all or not. However, when someone establishes a law that fails to yield mutual advantage, that law lacks the inherent nature of justice. Even if the mutual advantage in relation to justice diminishes, any time when it still aligns with the general idea, during such instances, it is regarded as just by those who avoid confusion caused by empty words but simply look at the circumstances."

χαρακτηρα “character” ὁ χαρακτήρ–τοῦ χαρακτῆρος: mark, figure. This word is uncertain in the texts, which show χώραν εἶναι. Bailey suggests the transposition εἶναι χώραν and correction to τό ἐνέχυρον ‘pledge, security.’

Interpretation: Laws are just when they are beneficial and they are unjust when they are not beneficial. The same law may be beneficial and just in one place and time, yet not beneficial in another place and time. No ordinance or decree makes a law just, but only the fact that it results in a practical benefit.

"Whenever, without any change in circumstances, those things considered just are shown in the actions themselves not to fit with the basic idea of justice -- it is not possible that they are just. With change in circumstances, when it would not be beneficial for the same things to be considered just -- then in that case they were just when it was beneficial for the interaction of fellow-citizens with each other yet later, when it was not beneficial, they were not just."

μη αρμοττοντα Єιc την προληψιν “not corresponding with the general idea” not fitting with the basic grasp.

ChatGPT interpretation: Justice is inherently contingent upon the alignment between circumstances and the principles upheld. Should the actions themselves reveal an incongruity with the fundamental ideals of justice, it becomes untenable to deem them just. As circumstances evolve, and the continued application of those same actions ceases to be advantageous, their justness in facilitating harmonious interactions among fellow citizens becomes obsolete, rendering them unjust.

ChatGPT translation: "Where, when there have been no new occurrences of the matters at hand, it appeared that they do not conform to the predetermined just actions; these were not just. But where, with new occurrences of the matters, the same actions were no longer advantageous, at that time they were just when they served the interaction among fellow citizens. However, later they were no longer just when they were no longer beneficial."

Hello Don,

In response to Elli, you said.

Quote from Don

I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment you're expressing, but I'm not seeing how you get from <τὰς ἐν ἀπολαύσει κειμένας> to "those enjoyments that lie out of limits". Just trying to learn and understand.

I know we are always walking a line between translation and interpretation, but I am inclined to agree with your sentiment here! It seems to me "we do not mean (the... pleasures of) languishing in retirement" or something similar gets the idea in mind.

GPT "When, therefore, we say that pleasure is the ultimate goal, we do not refer to the pleasures of the profligate or those derived from indulgence."

"...a Greek Man first dared to raise his mortal eyes in opposition

and he was first to resist in opposition-

whom neither the Reputation of the gods nor Thunderbolts nor the Sky

with its menacing roar restrained but even more stirred up in him

the sharp power of the mind- so that He desired

to be the first to break off the locked bolts of nature’s doors." DRN 1.66-71

Sounds very vigorous and active indeed! As you allude to, his output of books and maintenance of a community is a testament to much activity.

Hello Don,

What about taking the second τὰς back to τὰς ἡδονὰς?

Quote from Little Rocker

Granted, I'm just eyeballing it, so I should take some time to give it closer attention, but I'm reading the second τὰς as a reference back to τὰς ἡδονὰς, with the ἡδονὰς understood, so taken together 'the pleasures of profligates or the [pleasures] lying in consumption.'

"He who best organizes against his lack of confidence regarding the outside world is he who fully arranges what he can as familiar and, what he cannot, at least not as foreign - but in regards to all those things which he is not even able to do this, he makes himself estranged and expels what is beneficial to expel."

Oἱ ὁμόφυλοι (those like ourselves) are our friends with whom we interact for mutual benefit, oἱ οὐκ ἀλλόφυλοι (those who are not alien) are the general public with whom we interact for our own benefit, and oἱ ἀνεπίμεικτοι (those who are estranged) are people who may cause us harm and with whom we refuse to interact.

ανЄπιμЄικτοc–ἀνεπίμεικτος–ἀνεπίμεικτον “unmixed” without contact. A rare word which Plutarch also uses, saying the Pythian priestess has τὸν βίον ὅλως ἀνεπίμικτον ἀλλοδαπαῖς ὁμιλίαις: a life without contact with others, a life free from all association with strangers.

I am not committed to this translation. I would love to remove "in regards to" but I'm not sure how.

Yes I agree TauPhi, Hans Ørberg's PER SE ILLVSTRATA series is very helpful and also extremely fun. I love that his commitment to making everything in Latin extended to the copyright page.

It always perplexed me how so many texts intended for new readers.... do not mark the long vowels! If I had started with Ørberg and not Wheelock, I would have saved so much time that I spent looking constantly at a dictionary just to see the vowel length.

All who have the ability to arrange for themselves the greatest security from those who live around them live most pleasantly with each other because they have the most consistent assurance. Also, having received a complete friendship,

they do not morn the prior demise of who has past as though it is a cause for regret.

το βЄβαιοτατον πιcτωμα “the most certain guarantee” we live pleasantly with each other both because of the practical benefits of communal living and having a shared understanding of natural science.

πληρЄcτατην “fullest” πληρέστερος–πληρεστάτη–πληρέστατον: most complete, superlative of πλήρης–πλήρης–πλήρες: full, filled; satisfied. οικЄιοτητα “familiarity” ἡ οἰκειότης–τῆς οἰκειότητος: co-living, connection, friendship, intimacy.

Up for any critiques, particularly regarding my rendering of απολαβοντЄc.

Great stuff all around guys!

Don, I agree, Restored Classical pronunciation is the way to go, hearing "chaylee" for CAELI will always sound exotic to me!

How much to emphasize the meter is far less clear to me. With the three first recitations we have above, I can sympathize with Cassius' concern that there is a tendency for people reciting Latin poetry to be somewhat slavish in their relationship with the meter. Ranieri is more "natural / conversational" sounding but still seems to me to be more focused on the meter. PolyMathy's performance seems right on the mark - fully bringing out the meter, but not sacrificing thematic focus. I am not seeing any DRN on his youtube page however.

Thank you for your kind encouragement! There are some very good recitations of Lucretius around, but I love it too much not to add more. I just found that Zoom lets me record like this, so I read the intro as a test/starter. This can be read in many different ways. I also made a few mistakes.

That is great! Have we found "SFOTSE" being used in the Roman period? Seneca was popular, and it became a well known phrase. The Romans really DID make every common saying into an acronym, so perhaps even the use of the acronym is ancient. This pendant (https://etsy.me/33JADwQ) has the full, classic "Sic fac omnia tamquam spectet Epicurus." Thank you for sharing. SFOTSE!

That really sounds nice. I suppose I may not be doing too well in supporting the Fact that Epicureanism is definitely not a cult, but... the more busts the better... right?

Great podcast! It is often suggested that we could think of the senses as "honest witnesses" of the outside world and our brain as the judge sitting inside the courtroom. Sceptics do not trust the witnesses, Epicureans do trust the witnesses. An Epicurean understands that the witnesses (i.e. the senses) honestly report to him what they experienced, but what they experienced may not totally correspond to what actually happened. The larger number of (honest) witnesses the Epicurean judge has, the more accurate his impression of reality will be.

If you think the honest witnesses are liars you will have no ability to find out the truth, if you think the honest witnesses are completely accurate you will have a false impression of the truth -- if you understand the witnesses are honest, but flawed, you can increase your accuracy by generalizing the testimony of the witnesses.

Many amusing things can be said about the Thyrsus (DRN 1.923). Many amusing things can be done with the Thyrsus. I use mine mostly to hit people who try to distract me from studying Epicurus.

The Infula (1.87) is of course a religious headdress for sacrificing. It is a thick band of twisted red and white wool, wrapped around the forehead several times and then tied behind the head, with the free ends hanging forward over the shoulders onto the chest. It was worn on the forehead by priests and priestesses during official religious activities AND ALSO put on animal victims as their sacrificial headband. As soon as this influla was put on Īphiánassa's head (in contrast to the vitta, the matrimonial headband, that she expected) she knew that the gathering was not for a wedding but for a sacrifice. She was not a priestess trained to perform sacrifices... and therefore could conclude that she was the offering.

Hello! I am happy to see you are doing well. Thank you for your questions.

As we know, many Greek city-states issued their own currency, but often recognized the currency of other cities. Athenian coins had a good reputation and were recognized and used from the western Mediterranean to deep into the East. Yet, even in Athens, coins from other cities would be accepted as valid. Their metal quality and content was frequently tested, allowing for accuracy in conversions. This means there are many different coins that Epicurus may very well have seen throughout his life. Some, such as the famous Glaukes, are coins his grandparents would have been familiar with; others are new types that were issued, most often by the Diadochoi, during his lifetime.

Only around half of these coins are types that were issued before 270 BC - but they are all Greek or Roman (except for the out-of-place Mjölnir), I have tried twice to purchase a denarius issued by Lucius Lucretius Trio, from two different sellers. Both times it has been "lost in the mail," I have not allowed this to make me superstitious. All the coins are reproductions, I use ebay, and try not to pay more than $4 for each one. Greece and Turkey produce exact reproductions, other countries often mark their coins to stay in line with counterfeiting laws.

The bits of scrolls are also reproduction. I just print out PHercs (https://tinyurl.com/yysnaemw), cut them into the surviving pieces and put them in a frame. I think it is a good look.

Quote from Cassius

That's how you end up realizing that Nature gives us only pleasure and pain as stop and go signals, and that's why you end up with pleasure as the goal - not because you're soft and indulgent and just want to hide in your hole and escape pain, but because your rigorously and vigorously clear-eyed about the reality of life

Very well said, thank you. Carpe Diem!

Some Latin poets do not make use of alliteration, others try to avoid it, but is very frequent in Lucretius and sometimes quite heavy. It seems Ennius commonly used alliteration, but after him it came to be less popular (thought to be too obvious or simple for "golden age" Latin). It is therefore one of the Lucretian anachronisms. An early example from DRN is used at 1.86 "Ductôrēs dánaum (dēléctī prîma virôrum), The leaders of the Greeks, selected as first among men." Most editors point out the alliteration in this case is used to mock the idea Lucretius is expressing.

We have a good example at 1.200 "nōn pótuit pédibus quī póntum per váda póssent... [so why has Nature] not been able [to make men so large] who on foot would be able to go across the sea through the shallows..."

The reading is near technically perfect. The meter is clear and consistently treated, all elisions are passed over with ease. Perhaps too much focus is given to the perfect rendition of the poetry and taken away from a focus on the actual meaning of the words. Lucretius was passionate in this section about the soul's mortality, and from this perspective we all can tell that the reading is indefensibly robotic!

I agree, that the issue of justice lies exactly here: "Have the two castaways agreed on any ground rules?"

As we know, justice must be created, it does not just float around and therefore without us fabricating it by mutual agreement it will not be around at all.

KΔ32 "Natural justice is a mutual agreement of mutual interest to not harm each other and to not be harmed. All of the living things that are not able to form treaties regarding not harming each other and not being harmed: for them nothing can be just or unjust - in this same situation also are all of those tribes who were not able or did not want to form treaties about not harming and not being harmed."